Why Genetically Modifying Food Is A Bad Idea

Xort @ Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:20 pm

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Actually, no. I said that in reference to Genetically Modified anything. I said tomatoes (and many vegetables in supermarkets) have been naturally selected, and their appearance is the result of farming, not genetic manipulation. Adding glow in the dark markers from jellyfish to DNA is one method of Genetically Modifying organisms.

Has their ever been a GM product on sale (consumer or producer) that cross animal and plant genes?

$1:

That is the point though, if you select a trait you know what trait you are developing and it happens over generations. If you insert a gene, you radically change the organism and you have no idea what the concequences are.

A plant doesn't suddenly become poison because you selected for shorter stalks in wheat for example.

What if while selecting shorter stocks you are also selecting other traits that just happen to cluster with it? Maybe the one that relate to the amounts of emulsin and dhurrin in the plant tissue?

What I'm saying is that you have given a green light that all selected or hybrid crops are safe. But when it comes to GM crops you what ultra long term studies, (or longer than what has been conducted so far). That dosn't add up to a consistent method of testing.

$1:

Ohhh! Your honour, let the record reflect the defence has used the 'think of the children!' argument.

Yeah that's the point of the golden rice, to address critical short falls in the nutrition of people (children being the target group in general) that consume rice as a prime nutrition source.

$1:

So, malnutrition is a sudden thing that only a never before tested in humans rice can cure?

It looks like a solution that would work; Such that it's likely to be accepted and deployed and will fix the problem it's meant to.

Also another lie, Golden Rice (not sure which version but one of them) was tested on adult volunteers and the study of that testing/trial was published in 2009. So good job on trying to slip some more misinformation by.

$1:

How about we stop subsidizing farmers then North American products won't be cheaper than products in Africa, then farmers in Africa can actually make money on crops and people in Africa can enjoy fresh food and not be malnourished?

Why don't we overthrow all the governments in Africa and replace them with governers and governments that will actually look after the people and not just line the pockets of the elite, or fight endless wars?
Because neither suggestion is going to happen in the real world.

$1:

The cure for malnourishment is food; not some GMO rice controlled by a nameless for profit predatory corporation.

Who have given free licenses for golden rice. Those evil corporations! Just like drug dealers the first one is always free.

As for your simple answer of food, well it's not always possible to just magic up more food for people. A modified crop of a type that is already grown, that better fills their nutritional needs seems like a very good solution. A solution that is a lot more likely than ending all argo subsidies in the USA and EU.

$1:

So, do you have any information on the long term side effects of eating GM food?

Should I just give you a link to the very well sourced wiki article on GMOs or should I pull the quotes from the supporting material directly?

DrCaleb @ Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:29 am

Xort Xort:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Has their ever been a GM product on sale (consumer or producer) that cross animal and plant genes?

Firstly, you are still asking me to defend things I didn't claim. Secondly, the latest trend in GMO veggies are ones like anti-cholera potatoes that provide an immune response to the eater. That requires the e. Coli virus-like genes (animal!) in the potatoe. Do you doubt more are being developed?

Xort Xort:

$1:

It doesn't. You seem to think that the way we've been farming for 50,000 years will suddenly change overnight.

To create a new drug, extensive testing is required on animals, then humans. If the drug is to be repurposed for a different use to fight some other ailment, it must go through yet another trial to prove its effacacy and lack of harm to the subject. Even so, the list of side effects on many drugs is very long, and many include 'death'.

So, given that hybrid crops are fed to animals, then to humans, and testing goes something like 'no one died' - how safe to do think the product is? How might thy interact? How many GMO crops do we alread eat without knowing it, and what are the effects long term?

Xort Xort:

$1:

Ohhh! Your honour, let the record reflect the defence has used the 'think of the children!' argument.

Yeah that's the point of the golden rice, to address critical short falls in the nutrition of people (children being the target group in general) that consume rice as a prime nutrition source.

In the old days, if the kid had a beta carotene deficiency, you fed the kid a carrot.

Instead of GMOing a rice that gives carrot juice, how about we let the family plant carrots and eat them? I always point out when appropriate that 'Mother Nature always wins'. I don't want to be around if the GMO thing backfires.

Xort Xort:

$1:

So, malnutrition is a sudden thing that only a never before tested in humans rice can cure?

It's not a lie. People really did used to eat different vegetables to give them different vitamins and minerals! its the way we evolved, and it still the best way for us.

And the adult testing didn't go very well.

$1:

In 2009, research results of a clinical trial of Golden Rice with adult volunteers from the USA, was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. It concluded that "beta carotene derived from Golden Rice is effectively converted to vitamin A in humans".[28] In a summary about the research the American Society for Nutrition suggests the implications of the research are that "Golden Rice could probably supply 50% of the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of vitamin A from a very modest amount — perhaps a cup — of rice, if consumed daily. This amount is well within the consumption habits of most young children and their mothers".[29]

In response to the research, a group of 20 scientists suggested in an open letter that there might be deficiencies in clinical trials: "There is now a large body of evidence that shows that GM crop/food production is highly prone to inadvertent and unpredictable pleiotropic effects, which can result in health damaging effects when GM food products are fed to animals.[30][31][32] More specifically, our greatest concern is that this rice, which is engineered to overproduce beta carotene, has never been tested in animals, and there is an extensive medical literature showing that retinoids that can be derived from beta carotene are both toxic and cause birth defects." [33] However, it is well known that beta carotene is found and consumed in many nutritious foods eaten around the world, including fruits and vegetables. Beta carotene in food is a safe source of vitamin A.[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ric ... n_research

Xort Xort:

$1:

Reductio Ad Absurdium.

It's easy to stop subsidizing farmers. Just; don't give them any money.

Xort Xort:

$1:

The cure for malnourishment is food; not some GMO rice controlled by a nameless for profit predatory corporation.

With Montaso, 'free' doesn't mean 'free'. From the above link:

$1:

The cutoff between humanitarian and commercial use was set at US$10,000. Therefore, as long as a farmer or subsequent user of golden rice genetics does not make more than $10,000 per year, no royalties need to be paid. In addition, farmers are permitted to keep and replant seed.

Xort Xort:

$1:

So, do you have any information on the long term side effects of eating GM food?

Should I just give you a link to the very well sourced wiki article on GMOs or should I pull the quotes from the supporting material directly?

Yes please! Bear in mind though, I do tend to educate myself on the subject I debate.

$1:

An editorial in the respected American scientific monthly magazine, Scientific American, August 2009 reveals the shocking and alarming reality behind the proliferation of GMO products throughout the food chain of the planet since 1994. There are no independent scientific studies published in any reputed scientific journal in the world for one simple reason. It is impossible to independently verify that GMO crops such as Monsanto Roundup Ready Soybeans or MON8110 GMO maize perform as the company claims, or that, as the company also claims, that they have no harmful side effects because the GMO companies forbid such tests!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/gmo-scanda ... mans/14570

Xort @ Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:21 pm

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Firstly, you are still asking me to defend things I didn't claim.

"That said, tomatoes are genetically engineered. So are dogs."

"They aren't gene-spliced though. They are slowly bred naturally for their traits so we know how they behave. They don't have parts of glow-in-the-dark fish spliced to their DNA."

I take it when you said glow in the dark fish you were talking about the dogs, not the tomatoes? Because you do know that research has been conducted on crossing fish and tomatoe genes right?

$1:

Secondly, the latest trend in GMO veggies are ones like anti-cholera potatoes that provide an immune response to the eater. That requires the e. Coli virus-like genes (animal!) in the potatoe. Do you doubt more are being developed?

What the fuck is a e. coli virus-like gene?

Do you mean using a virus as the delivery system for e.coli genes? Or do you mean that a virus is an animal? Or that e.coli is a virus?

Anyway, again you have failed to answer my question has their ever been a product for sale with animal genes added to a plant?

$1:

It doesn't. You seem to think that the way we've been farming for 50,000 years will suddenly change overnight.

No, I'm saying that are you keep performing selection you keep getting new results. If we wish to apply the same level of safety mindedness to all our food, those new selected breeds should be subject to indentical studies as your suggesting GM foods need to have. After all how do you know that their are not unknown interactions lying in wait?

$1:

So, given that hybrid crops are fed to animals, then to humans, and testing goes something like 'no one died' - how safe to do think the product is?

Unknown, not enough data or depth of study to make an informed fact based risk evaluation. At best we have, 'Well no one seemed to have died from it, so I guess it's good.' And I can accept that. Which is why I can also accept that from GMOs.

$1:

How might thy interact? How many GMO crops do we alread eat without knowing it, and what are the effects long term?

Again unknown not enough data, but so far no one has died and not a single case has ever been reported of harm caused by GM foods in humans that has stood up to a scientific review.

$1:

In the old days, if the kid had a beta carotene deficiency, you fed the kid a carrot.

Carrots are not always a suitable crop for the people that would need it. If it was as simple as you keep saying do you not think that a program to give out carot seeds with instructions and training wouldn't have already been completed world wide years and years ago?

$1:

Instead of GMOing a rice that gives carrot juice, how about we let the family plant carrots and eat them?

What or who is stopping them from doing that now?

$1:

I always point out when appropriate that 'Mother Nature always wins'. I don't want to be around if the GMO thing backfires.

Well mother nature seems to be winning it's fight against healthy humans in some areas.

$1:

It's not a lie.

The hell you say, you flat out said it has never been tested in humans. That is a lie and you are a liar for saying that.

$1:

People really did used to eat different vegetables to give them different vitamins and minerals! its the way we evolved, and it still the best way for us.

It might be the best way, but it's just not going to happen.

$1:

And the adult testing didn't go very well.

No one died and the rice did it's job in getting vitamin A into humans. I suspect that the test was done on the first version of the golden rice. The issue of low levels of beta carotene was addressed in new versions.

$1:

In response to the research, a group of 20 scientists suggested in an open letter that there might be deficiencies in clinical trials: "There is now a large body of evidence that shows that GM crop/food production is highly prone to inadvertent and unpredictable pleiotropic effects, which can result in health damaging effects when GM food products are fed to animals.[30][31][32]

Which is *almost* as good as a study showing the golden rice is harmful and has inadvertent and unpredictable pleiotropic effects.

$1:

Reductio Ad Absurdium.
It's easy to stop subsidizing farmers. Just; don't give them any money.

Well two points, first not all subsidies are in the form of direct money transfers, and second do you know nothing about politics? Because 'stop giving farmers money' is more or less politically impossible (in both the EU and USA).

You don't seem to have even a weak grasp on just how the world actually works.

$1:

With Montaso, 'free' doesn't mean 'free'. From the above link:

$1:

Sounds reasonable. In many places $1USD is a good chunk of a day's wage. A farmer that's making more than $10,000 of rice per year isn't a subsistence farmer. That's a lot of rice.

$1:

Yes please! Bear in mind though, I do tend to educate myself on the subject I debate.

Yes please to which option, the link or the direct quotes?

Xort @ Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:43 pm

The summery is DrCaleb thinks that government regulation and safety requirements for GM food are not good enough. I think that they are.

I would love to see more government action in the field of GMO, to counter the problems with corporate control of the GM foods. But it seems that the EU has gone full enviromentalist and are anti-GMO (which is really just another form of subsidy for EU farmers), while the USA is strongly against the government trying to do anything or entering into the market against private corporations.

That leaves more or less India and China as the only large states likely to have an interest in GMOs. Australia, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, Russia might be intrested enough to start a program of state operated GMO research but for reasons each nation is unlikely to hit out something big.

I guess the dream of free to use GMOs is still one for the future.

Zipperfish @ Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:46 pm

I'm kind of a guilty carnivore, so what I'd like to see is talking chickens that make you feel better about eating them. "Go ahead baste me!"

DrCaleb @ Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:35 am

Xort Xort:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

They don't have parts of glow-in-the-dark fish spliced to their DNA."

I take it when you said glow in the dark fish you were talking about the dogs, not the tomatoes? Because you do know that research has been conducted on crossing fish and tomatoe genes right?

Read the sentence again. I know you speak English well. I am speaking of what it is not, not what it is.

Xort Xort:

$1:

What the fuck is a e. coli virus-like gene?

You can Google. Look at the study. In order to protect from Cholera, an immune response must trigger the immune system of the person who eats the potatoe. It must have the RNA from the virus in order to trigger the immune response.

Xort Xort:

$1:

It doesn't. You seem to think that the way we've been farming for 50,000 years will suddenly change overnight.

Because as you are gradually selecting for a trait, people still eat the product.

Xort Xort:

$1:

So, given that hybrid crops are fed to animals, then to humans, and testing goes something like 'no one died' - how safe to do think the product is?

Thalidomide.

Xort Xort:

$1:

How might thy interact? How many GMO crops do we alread eat without knowing it, and what are the effects long term?

Again unknown not enough data, but so far no one has died and not a single case has ever been reported of harm caused by GM foods in humans that has stood up to a scientific review.

Since there is no data, how do you know? How do we know things like allergies are not trigerred by genetic modifications?

Xort Xort:

$1:

In the old days, if the kid had a beta carotene deficiency, you fed the kid a carrot.

$1:

Instead of GMOing a rice that gives carrot juice, how about we let the family plant carrots and eat them?

What or who is stopping them from doing that now?

Have you not been paying attention? When the price of good of American goods in Africa is cheaper than buying local, local farmers go out of business. Then there is no one to grow local food, and malnutrition is the result.

Xort Xort:

$1:

I always point out when appropriate that 'Mother Nature always wins'. I don't want to be around if the GMO thing backfires.

Well mother nature seems to be winning it's fight against healthy humans in some areas.

Did you have a point?

Xort Xort:

$1:

It's not a lie.

The hell you say, you flat out said it has never been tested in humans. That is a lie and you are a liar for saying that.

And I provided a link to verify my assertion. Since the name calling continues, I guess this is where our discussion ends.

BeaverFever @ Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:55 pm

$1:

Do you mean using a virus as the delivery system for e.coli genes? Or do you mean that a virus is an animal? Or that e.coli is a virus?

E. Coli is a virus and is used as the delivery mechanism for the foreign gene that scientists want to insert into the host organism. In order to splice genes, you need to 'hack' into a cell of the host organism and then re-program that cell to sometihng something different than its normal function - which is what viruses do by definition.

$1:

Anyway, again you have failed to answer my question has their ever been a product for sale with animal genes added to a plant?

Not sure your question is relevant, but most of these plants have been hacked with genenes from bacteria, which I don't suppose is any less of a concern than a gene from an animal. The GMO corn that has been engineered to produce its own instecticide for example, is spliced with the genes from a toxic bacteria called Bacillus thuringiensis. This bacterial toxin is poison to humans as well, so the challenge in developing this corn was to find a dosage strong enough to reliably kill insects, but not so strong as to be harmful to humans. But make no mistake, this is still poison and if you eat this corn and then give a blood sample to your doctor, they will see that you have low-dose Bacillus thuringiensis toxin in your blood and the doc will say "oh, you must have been eating GMO Corn recently, you've got pesticide in your blood". If a pregnant woman eats this corn, the fetus will be fed a diet of BT Toxin as well.

Beyond the human health concern, we are learning that in the field, not every kernel of GMO corn consistently produces enough toxin to deliver a fatal dose to invading insects, so insects are themselves developing a resistance to the toxin through prolonged low-dose exposure. This is a problem to farmers because the toxin is a main ingredient in conventional pesticides, so the advent of BT-toxin producing corn has helped create insect resistance to BT-toxin topical pesticides as well.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/326208

Finally, a major problem with GMO crops is that you can't isolate them from the environment and control their spread. Once they are out there in the fields, they cross-polenate with wild plants and other farmer's crops via birds, bees, wind etc and that could have all kinds of untold consequence for wild plants (and the animals that eat them) that haven't been subjected to the supposed safety mechanisms you falsely assume are in place. This uncontrollable spread also robs other famrers of the right NOT to have genetically modified organisms contaminate their crops.

housewife @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:36 pm

While all this is debated has anyone noticed that the incident of deadly food alergies are on the rise as is auto-amune illnesses. Not to mention the new little add ons for the new and wonderful drugs that where said to be safe for all now have lists of who can't have it.

Maybe we should take a break and stop playing at things still not understood

Xort @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:57 pm

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Read the sentence again. I know you speak English well. I am speaking of what it is not, not what it is.

What you said was that selected breeding doesn't cross animal and plant genes which is correct, but makes the implication that GM via gene manipulation does.

$1:

What the fuck is a e. coli virus-like gene?

$1:

Because as you are gradually selecting for a trait, people still eat the product.

And when you gradually select something that starts killing some of the people that eat it? That's just part of the process?

$1:

Thalidomide.

Neptune?

$1:

Since there is no data, how do you know? How do we know things like allergies are not trigerred by genetic modifications?

I didn't say no data, I said not enough to make a fully informed and truthful statement.

We do have enough data to make good predictions.

$1:

What does that have to do with not them not planting carrots, which was your solution?

Also if it is cheaper to buy imported for then clearly they would have more PPP to send on other things.

$1:

Did you have a point?

Natural isn't always good.

$1:

And I provided a link to verify my assertion. Since the name calling continues, I guess this is where our discussion ends.

You said it's never been tested, your link said it had.

How does your link not just prove that you knowingly said something that wasn't true?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

Do you mean using a virus as the delivery system for e.coli genes? Or do you mean that a virus is an animal? Or that e.coli is a virus?

E. Coli is a virus and is used as the delivery mechanism for the foreign gene that scientists want to insert into the host organism.

E.Coli is not a virus. Although it is possible for E.coli to have a virus, it however is not a virus.

$1:

This uncontrollable spread also robs other famrers of the right NOT to have genetically modified organisms contaminate their crops.

Is that a right given by god, the government or that all humans just have?

housewife housewife:

While all this is debated has anyone noticed that the incident of deadly food alergies are on the rise as is auto-amune illnesses. Not to mention the new little add ons for the new and wonderful drugs that where said to be safe for all now have lists of who can't have it.
Maybe we should take a break and stop playing at things still not understood

We have more incidents because more children don't die from the alergies or auto-immune issues because of our health care.

Want to have more healthy people? Have a higher child fatality rate.

housewife @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:37 pm

Xort Xort:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Read the sentence again. I know you speak English well. I am speaking of what it is not, not what it is.

What you said was that selected breeding doesn't cross animal and plant genes which is correct, but makes the implication that GM via gene manipulation does.

$1:

What the fuck is a e. coli virus-like gene?

$1:

Because as you are gradually selecting for a trait, people still eat the product.

And when you gradually select something that starts killing some of the people that eat it? That's just part of the process?

$1:

Thalidomide.

Neptune?

$1:

Since there is no data, how do you know? How do we know things like allergies are not trigerred by genetic modifications?

I didn't say no data, I said not enough to make a fully informed and truthful statement.

We do have enough data to make good predictions.

$1:

What does that have to do with not them not planting carrots, which was your solution?

Also if it is cheaper to buy imported for then clearly they would have more PPP to send on other things.

$1:

Did you have a point?

Natural isn't always good.

$1:

And I provided a link to verify my assertion. Since the name calling continues, I guess this is where our discussion ends.

You said it's never been tested, your link said it had.

How does your link not just prove that you knowingly said something that wasn't true?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

Do you mean using a virus as the delivery system for e.coli genes? Or do you mean that a virus is an animal? Or that e.coli is a virus?

E. Coli is a virus and is used as the delivery mechanism for the foreign gene that scientists want to insert into the host organism.

E.Coli is not a virus. Although it is possible for E.coli to have a virus, it however is not a virus.

$1:

This uncontrollable spread also robs other famrers of the right NOT to have genetically modified organisms contaminate their crops.

Is that a right given by god, the government or that all humans just have?

housewife housewife:

While all this is debated has anyone noticed that the incident of deadly food alergies are on the rise as is auto-amune illnesses. Not to mention the new little add ons for the new and wonderful drugs that where said to be safe for all now have lists of who can't have it.
Maybe we should take a break and stop playing at things still not understood

We have more incidents because more children don't die from the alergies or auto-immune issues because of our health care.

Want to have more healthy people? Have a higher child fatality rate.

The rise in food allergies started in the late 1990s and has been said to be as high as a 50% increase

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/health-hea ... -1.1263290

and acording to a John Hopkins University paper childhood mortality has been dropping for 100 years

https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bi ... tality.pdf

so beginning of the 1900s and end of the 1900s not seeing the coralation

but wait when did we start playing with Frankenfood?? The end of the 1900. Looks like a coralation to me

Xort @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:29 pm

housewife housewife:

[
The rise in food allergies started in the late 1990s and has been said to be as high as a 50% increase

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/health-hea ... -1.1263290

"The researchers did not ask if a doctor had made the diagnosis or check medical records. So some parents may have been stating a personal opinion, and not necessarily a correct one.

"We see a lot of kids in clinic that really aren't" allergic to the foods their parents worry about, said Dr. Morton Galina, a pediatric allergist at Atlanta's Emory School of Medicine."

$1:

but wait when did we start playing with Frankenfood?? The end of the 1900. Looks like a coralation to me

"Some suspect the change has something to do with the evolution in how foods are grown and produced, like the crossbreeding of wheat or the use of antibiotics in cattle. But Lio said tests haven't supported that."

BeaverFever @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:43 pm

$1:

Is that a right given by god, the government or that all humans just have?

The same right you have for me to not piss in your Cornflakes or throw garbage over your fence.

housewife @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:53 pm

antibiotics in cattle is also under fire. Look at all the antibiotic resistant strains going around.

When new drugs come out they have been tested or so they tell us then a few years later they are saying if don't take it if you have...

There are ways to feed the population but it will not happen. Just as GMO's will not save the world or feed it. There will always be some greedy person selling pixie dust and there will always be people buying it.

you still havent showen a coralation with mortality

PublicAnimalNo9 @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:57 pm

Two reasons I do NOT trust GE foods. 1)Monsanto(for one) is essentially a chemical company looking for ways to double-end their chemical product sales. Ever heard of "Roundup"? I'll give you three guesses who makes it and the first two guesses don't count.

2)The "selling point" that GE foods will eliminate starvation is utter crap. The world produces MORE than enough food to feed its population, the problems are in distribution, hoarding by unscrupulous govts and let's face it, lots of waste.
When you have to tell an obvious lie to sell a product, the product ain't worth shit.

Actually, there is a third. I think it's Bt corn but regardless, most corn nowadays is GE and the biotoxin it produces while effective, is also leeching into the soil in measurable amounts. These biotoxins may not be so healthy for rotational crops or the soil fertility in general by altering its pH balance.

Most Bt crops are designed to protect against primary insect "predators". The problem there is most have had their secondary insect "predator" defenses neutralized(for whatever reason) leaving them highly susceptible to attack by said insects.

CanadianJeff @ Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:30 pm

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The biggest problems with GMO is that the result of this kind of agriculture is that a handful of corporations end up with a stranglehold on global food production.

While I'm quite the ardent capitalist I utterly oppose handing this kind of power to anyone, be it a country or a board of directors.

One of those few times that the government sponsoring an organization that oversees our safety is actually a good thing.

Gotta admit though on the other end I am more then a little tired of the "organic only" crowd pretending all GM food is bad.

GM foods gave us increased yields and disease resistances so less pesticides had to be used. GM foods also are often cheaper and easier to produce and farm in poorer countries.

Not everything is good or bad about GM foods it's one of those uncomfortably grey areas of life like anything else.

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