What ever happened to Canadian Industry?
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:09 pm
Demian_164 Demian_164:
I dont know if this is true, but just guessing at how socialist sweden is, i imagine they have much more protectionism, and corporate welfare than we do here.
The companies I quoted for Sweden were from wiki. Wiki also says about those companies:
$1:
Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria and Italy, publicly owned enterprises were always of minor importance.
mtbr @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:14 pm
Volvo is owned by Ford, Saab is a division of GM...so much for being Swedish..
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:15 pm
stokes stokes:
But your numbers also show that per capita those companies do better than ours.
Exactly!
stokes stokes:
I know why we dont manufacture anymore....high wages..the cost of having someone sit in a factory and build something plus their vacation and benefits is phenominal, not too long ago GM did a buyout of employees because with benefits those employees were costing them over $100/ hour X 30,000 employees is a huge number.
If we want to be able to compete two things have to happen
1. Dial wages back to where they were 20 years ago
2. People must stop being so damn lazy and be willing to work where ever to support our economy(Janitor, Garbageman other not so great jobs)
We are a society of entitlement, young people (35 and under)(me included) dont want the shitty jobs that can lead to better things we all want to start at the top!!
If we want to be able to compete two things have to happen
1. Dial wages back to where they were 20 years ago
2. People must stop being so damn lazy and be willing to work where ever to support our economy(Janitor, Garbageman other not so great jobs)
We are a society of entitlement, young people (35 and under)(me included) dont want the shitty jobs that can lead to better things we all want to start at the top!!
Excuse me??? You're joking, right?
As I pointed out in an earlier post, Sweden's unionization rate is 79% and ours is about 32%. High wages are the norm in Sweden.
They are also taxed at much higher rates than Canadians.
No, the problem isn't the Canadian worker.
By the way, wages for middle class and poor people ARE where they were 20 years ago!!! In fact, wages haven't improved in real terms since 1980. See the latest StatsCan report on income.
Is it any wonder that Canadian workers are pissed off about shitty jobs at the bottom - none of them pay a living wage!
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:18 pm
mtbr mtbr:
Volvo is owned by Ford, Saab is a division of GM...so much for being Swedish..
Oh, good lord.
Yes, in times like this I believe in a malevolent god...It's not about ownership. It's about where the things get made, where the tax revenue flows and where the good jobs are. I dont' care if Martians want to build an electric car plant in Missisauga as long as there are lots of good, well-paying jobs for Canadians.
Finally, Volvo, Saab, Ericsson, etc., were all 'made in Sweden' companies.
Demian_164 @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:21 pm
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
ridenrain ridenrain:
Where did you get you're numbers. Mine shows that Canada has almost twice as many large successful businesses as Sweden.
Did you just make this up?
Did you just make this up?
Is that what you think this topic is about????
Canada population 33 million
Sweden population 9 million
According to you, a country with less than 1/3 the pop. of ours has a bit less than 1/2 the number of Forbes 200 companies.
That's way BETTER than Canada based on population.
But, that's not even close to what this topic is about!!!
I'll try to be polite as I explain.
This topic is about the loss of Canada's industrial base - manufacturing things - not digging things up or moving numbers around.
The list I posted, which, by the way, is pretty close to the list from Forbes, shows that the Canadian economy is dominated by financial services and the energy sector. These two areas are not considered part of our industrial base - well, energy is, but it's not manufacturing and there's very little value added to these natural resources here in Canada.
I am complaining that in Canada we don't make things like cars or jets or washing machines or high tech (except for a few small exceptions). I gave Sweden as an example of little country that makes LOTS of things like cars and trucks and high tech goodies.
Why am I complaining about this? Well, for example, when we ship synthcrude south without refining it we lose tens of thousand of high paying jobs. When we don't make the things we buy, we instead make other countries better off.
I dont know of any exact facts but i think the WTO has something to do with this. The products we made at ford werent being sold in many other places than in north america, with a few exceptions. Countries like china are allowed to have huge tarrif rates on imported products to protect their domestic industries, so people there pay what we pay for our cars plus a mark-up of sometimes over 15% (again dont quote me). While here, We cant set tarrifs that high without pulling out of the WTO.
I might be completely wrong, but this is what everyone was telling me while i worked at ford. WTO favors a more even distribution of wealth so domestic manufacturing industries of 1st world nations are taking the blows.
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:25 pm
Demian_164 Demian_164:
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
ridenrain ridenrain:
Where did you get you're numbers. Mine shows that Canada has almost twice as many large successful businesses as Sweden.
Did you just make this up?
Did you just make this up?
Is that what you think this topic is about????
Canada population 33 million
Sweden population 9 million
According to you, a country with less than 1/3 the pop. of ours has a bit less than 1/2 the number of Forbes 200 companies.
That's way BETTER than Canada based on population.
But, that's not even close to what this topic is about!!!
I'll try to be polite as I explain.
This topic is about the loss of Canada's industrial base - manufacturing things - not digging things up or moving numbers around.
The list I posted, which, by the way, is pretty close to the list from Forbes, shows that the Canadian economy is dominated by financial services and the energy sector. These two areas are not considered part of our industrial base - well, energy is, but it's not manufacturing and there's very little value added to these natural resources here in Canada.
I am complaining that in Canada we don't make things like cars or jets or washing machines or high tech (except for a few small exceptions). I gave Sweden as an example of little country that makes LOTS of things like cars and trucks and high tech goodies.
Why am I complaining about this? Well, for example, when we ship synthcrude south without refining it we lose tens of thousand of high paying jobs. When we don't make the things we buy, we instead make other countries better off.
I dont know of any exact facts but i think the WTO has something to do with this. The products we made at ford werent being sold in many other places than in north america, with a few exceptions. Countries like china are allowed to have huge tarrif rates on imported products to protect their domestic industries, so people there pay what we pay for our cars plus a mark-up of sometimes over 15% (again dont quote me). While here, We cant set tarrifs that high without pulling out of the WTO.
I might be completely wrong, but this is what everyone was telling me while i worked at ford. WTO favors a more even distribution of wealth so domestic manufacturing industries of 1st world nations are taking the blows.
No doubt about it, the WTO and GATT before it played a big role in offshoring jobs. But, Bombardier still turn a tidy profit by manufacturing in Canada - where are all the Canadian entrepreneurs? Have they gone south because that's where the venture capital is?
stokes @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:32 pm
The only reason why the poor and middle class cant make a living is because we as a society have eyes bigger than our wallets, I alone make more than the national average and I still live paycheck to paycheck along with most of the nation, because we always want bigger and better, so we want our employers to pay more and more, why should they it is our own faults that we consume more than we can afford.
spend less on the shit you dont need and you will see your life improve, I am getting there and in 2 years I will be 100% debt free and I cant wait!!
Toro @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:13 pm
GDP per capita is 10% higher in Canada than in Sweden.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... nt/ca.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... nt/sw.html
Inequality is higher in Sweden than in Canada
http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhil ... icien.html
Swedish GDP per head relative to other industrialized countries
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/060d9198-a893- ... e2340.html
The idea that manufacturing is somehow a more noble and desirous industry is a quaint and anachronistic one. What matters is not manufacturing, but the output generated from the economic activity.
Its pretty easy to understand why the share of national income has shifted away from manufacturing to basic materials, particularly energy. The terms of trade have dramatically improved for energy.
http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhil ... ing-i.html
Toro @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:18 pm
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
The USA used to have a huge industrial base. GM used to be the biggest company in the world and today they have to go begging to the tax-payers for a handout.
The US still has a huge industrial base.
Manufacturing continues to rise.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/INDPRO
Toro @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:30 pm
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
This topic is about the loss of Canada's industrial base - manufacturing things - not digging things up or moving numbers around.
Yet, manufacturing sales in Canada have continued to rise.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/manuf11.htm
Machinery, food, electrical equipment, chemicals, fabricated metal products, and machinery have all risen.
Other industries such as transportation, computers, plastics and furniture are about the same as five years ago or slightly lower, which is pretty amazing considering that the loonie went from $0.62 to $1.10.
How can this be if Canada has lost its industrial base?
EDIT - This is from Statscan
$1:
The Canadian manufacturing sector covers 21 industry groups that produce goods for both industrial and consumer use. The manufacturing sector’s activity is monitored monthly and annually, as it accounts for a large part of Canada’s Gross Domestic Product. Information includes financial and commodity-based data.
http://cansim2.statcan.ca/cgi-win/cnsmc ... SP_ID=4005
Bruce_the_vii @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:34 pm
Interesting that Swedish market income is as bad as Canada.
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:02 pm
Toro Toro:
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
This topic is about the loss of Canada's industrial base - manufacturing things - not digging things up or moving numbers around.
Yet, manufacturing sales in Canada have continued to rise.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/manuf11.htm
Machinery, food, electrical equipment, chemicals, fabricated metal products, and machinery have all risen.
Other industries such as transportation, computers, plastics and furniture are about the same as five years ago or slightly lower, which is pretty amazing considering that the loonie went from $0.62 to $1.10.
How can this be if Canada has lost its industrial base?
EDIT - This is from Statscan
$1:
The Canadian manufacturing sector covers 21 industry groups that produce goods for both industrial and consumer use. The manufacturing sector’s activity is monitored monthly and annually, as it accounts for a large part of Canada’s Gross Domestic Product. Information includes financial and commodity-based data.
http://cansim2.statcan.ca/cgi-win/cnsmc ... SP_ID=4005
And Toro wades in with his charts and graphs! How quaint.
Please read the thread this time, instead of picking one sentence and basing your massivley boring and entirely useless rebuttal on it.
But thanks for trying!
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")
C.M. Burns @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:04 pm
Toro Toro:
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
The USA used to have a huge industrial base. GM used to be the biggest company in the world and today they have to go begging to the tax-payers for a handout.
The US still has a huge industrial base.
Manufacturing continues to rise.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/INDPRO
I wrote about GM needing billions in handouts from the taxpayer and all you've got is more charts from... suprise, suprise, surprise! - the Fed.
Toro @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:44 pm
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
And Toro wades in with his charts and graphs! How quaint.
Please read the thread this time, instead of picking one sentence and basing your massivley boring and entirely useless rebuttal on it.
But thanks for trying!
Please read the thread this time, instead of picking one sentence and basing your massivley boring and entirely useless rebuttal on it.
But thanks for trying!
Sorry I have to continuously pwn your sorry ass with facts and figures. Anecdotes and political biases are soooooooo much better.
CommanderSock @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:46 pm
$1:
We are a society of entitlement, young people (35 and under)(me included) dont want the shitty jobs that can lead to better things we all want to start at the top!!
Not start at the top, but as janitor you won't become CFO or VP of Finance.