Dalton McGuinty: Canada’s greenest premier ever

BeaverFever @ Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:06 pm

$1:

Construction projects ain't job creation, it's giving contracts to those that already HAVE jobs.
Acutal NEW jobs created I'd estimate to be in the hundreds if the three examples I mentioned earlier are any indication.

well no, when you increase the demand for labour, the supply has to come from somewhere and companies start hiring. Otherwise, you should contact Harper's "Economic Action Plan" people and let them know of your discovery. Actually, I know 2 (previously unskilled) people who got into construction trades - glazier and electrician, respectively - back in 2010 because of all the demand for construction labour and both are now at or near their third year of apprenticeship. The jobs they've had so far that I know of: 3 hospitals (Niagara, Mt. Sinai, and St. Joseph's) and 3 Universities(Brock, Ryerson, McMaster) in addition to other private sector sites.

$1:

Billions of dollars for a pet ideology project

I don't think anyone would consider renewable energy a "pet ideology project". I mean sooner or later it will become a reality because Non-renewable energy, by definion means we are depleting it. It's really funny, when it comes to oilsands, coal and nukes, the right-wing says "future technology will make these greener and more efficient, never underestimate the limitless potential science and the future!!" But when it comes to renewables these same people are like "Nope. don't bother, nothing to see here....it's not the main source of energy now, which means it never ever will be, we've reached the limits of human technology." I think switching from conventional energy to renewable energy is akin to electification of the country to begin with - large infrastructure investements and incentives were made then and should be made now.

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Unfortunately the IESO doesn't quite agree with you. Because of the vagaries of nature, wind and solar won't be able to provide base load generation without having the countryside fairly over-run by mirrors and windmills.

Currently, but as with all techonology, it will become more efficient over time.

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Getting solar power to the point where the average homeowner can afford it and get some time off the grid is what we need to be shooting for. The fact that billions were spent to keep people dependent on the grid speaks volumes.

Feed-In Tarrif is the incentive for people to install the kits and get their money back in a few years. It's desiged to be scaled back and (eventually) replaced with another program as the number of solar users grows, but you need to get that critical mass of solar users in the first place.

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Don't assume bud, it makes you look silly. That stretch of 401 through Essex and Kent counties is as well known to me as my own family. Many of the 400+ turbines eye-polluting the place are ON private property. The owners were of course paid for it, along with a heaping helping of bullshit about the turbines.

Try to retrace your earlier train of thought. Your question was: who wants to buy land with a windmill ON it. Your comments above seem to answer that question (the people who agreed to it and who want to get paid for it, of course!) so one can only conclude that when you're talking about people who don't want to live near windmills, you are not talking about the people who do want to live near windmills...i.e, the neigbours of windmill owners. Or are you allging the people who have them all have seller's remorse?

$1:

I don't feel like playing strawman today, thanks.

Not a straw man at all. Some people clearly don't like living near windmills, others don't like living near other things. It's a zoning and planning issue, but not a reason not to have the thing at all.

$1:

Yep, cuz he's a partisan asshole. The rural area along the 401 tends to vote Conservative and many have these things ON THEIR LAND, while the ridings where the gas plants were supposed to be built were Liberal ridings.
I've seen the asshole play the same games with more than one city's healthcare too.

Show me a politican or governing party where that type of thing doesn't occur. I'm not condoning the gas plant thing at all, BTW. But funny, because there's this headline from the last election:

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How McGuinty's green-energy policy cost him a majority in Ontario
...Ms. Van Bommel lost on Thursday evening, one of seven Liberal incumbents who went down to defeat in rural ridings where green energy and wind turbines were major issues. And they were not all backbenchers. Among the casualties was the agriculture minister (Carol Mitchell), the education minister (Leona Dombrowsky) and, most symbolically, the environment minister (John Wilkinson). The Progressive Conservatives won all seven of those seats.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... cle556454/

$1:

Uh yeah, and most of those years we're talking fractional amounts. From 1991 to 1997, Ontario was a major net EXPORTER of hydro.

Wasn't your original complaint that due to the particular McGuinty mismanagement, the province is generating too much surplus? [huh]

Again what is your position?

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Ontario must wean itself off energy imports: Tories
Tue Jul 10 2007
Ontario needs to wean itself off importing energy from its neighbours because the province's stagnating energy capacity has made it increasingly vulnerable to blackouts during the hot summer months, Conservative Leader John Tory said Tuesday.
...The Liberals haven't done enough to make Ontario self-sufficient by building up the province's homegrown energy supply, Tory said. The province has less generating capacity now than it did 12 years ago, he added.

http://www.thestar.com/news/2007/07/10/ ... ories.html
Damned if you do, damned if you don't eh?

$1:

That's not only wrong, it's lazy research

No, that's correct.

$1:

What's the point of being a big exporter of hydro when the exports cost 3.2 cents/ KWh while the Ontario rate payer gets to shell out as much 14 cents/KWh.

Charge the Global Adjustment Charge to exporters, who are arbitraging the fact that they are currently exempt and you solve the problem. Also your "14 cents" figure is including other things that are not the price of elecricity such as the old Ontario Hydro Debt Retirement Charge (a Harris-era innovation) and the Distribution fee charged by your local utility. The actual energy price, as charged by Oshawa PUC, is currently 7.4 cents per Kwh for usage under 1000kwh (which is the averae household usage)plus to be fair, I'll throw in the 0.6 cents for the Global Adjustment fee for a total of 8 cents per kwh. Also you're comparing retail prices to Wholesale prices which is arguably not the correct comparisson. But your point is noted - the Ontario ratepayer pays about $50 a year in Global Adjustment fees for energy that is exported without the fee charged to the purchased.

$1:

The problem is, those numbers are way out of whack. There are about 13.5 million households in Canada. The numbers you mention indicate that Ontario has enough capacity for 17-18 million households, or to put it another way, Ontario apparently has nearly the capacity to generate enough electricty to supply every home in Ontario twice over, PLUS every house in the rest of Canada. Hell, Ontario's nuclear and hydro-electric output alone as of the hour I'm writing this post, are providing power to almost 10 million homes across 3 provinces and 5 US states.
Meanwhile I'm shelling out almost 14 fucking cents a KWh for something Ontario exports for 3.2 cents/KWh while it dumps the surplus.

That's installed capacity, not all generators are online at the same time. From IESO website:

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Installed Capacity: There is 35,858 MW of installed generation in Ontario's electricity market. The amount of generation actually available at any one time is dependent on outages and the capacity factor of certain forms of supply.

Nuclear: 12,998 MW or 36.2%
Gas: 9,987 MW or 27.9%
Coal: 3,293 MW or 9.2%
Hydro: 7,939 MW or 22.2%
Wind: 1,511 MW or 4.2%
Other (wood waste, biogas, etc): 122 MW or 0.3%

$1:

That's a nice sentiment and all but the European countries that led the way in green energy have cut most, to all subsidies to wind and solar power. EVERY single one of them has seen the negative effects on employment and the economy.

Umm, no. European growth in wind power is expected to slow, but still grow, because of Austerity measures that reduce subsidies or tax incentives.
Der Spiegel gives the scoop here: http://www.canadaka.net/forums/posting.php

Also check this out:
The U.S. Installed Record 13.2 Gigawatts Of Wind Energy In 2012 - Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... y-in-2012/

$1:

Would that not qualify as "economic failure"? I for one, think it was nice of McNuggets to dogpile onto a problem that Harper got shit on for exclaiming wasn't going to happen.
I mean if Harper was stupid for claiming the economy was looking free and clear back in 2005 when apparently all the experts new otherwise, then how stupid is McNuggets for instituting a policy he knew damn well was going to be pointless and needlessly expensive for Ontario during a time of economic turmoil?

Well if the complaint is that he pursued policies too agressively, I susppose that's a vaild opinon, but only an opinion.

BeaverFever @ Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:00 pm

$1:

Funny how you skipped to chapter 11. Actually, it's not funny, it's typical.

Of course the MOE played a part in the failure of the process especially considering these procedures were going in improperly for 20 years.

Dude, it just goes on and on. You should read it.

I never said he was solely to blame, but Chapter 11 is the section on MOE and cabinet, and where the MOE and Cabinet are blamed. Would it matter if it was chapter 2 or 12?

$1:

What did McGuinty to do improve the situation post-Harris?

Speficially, implemented all 121 recommendations of the Walkerton Inquiry Report, passed the Clean Water Act,created the Walkerton Clean Water Centre, which in turn created a private sector clean water technology cluster that 22,000 people in 900 companies and consults in projects all over the world.

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Sorry, you lost me at the lefty nonsese of "corporate giveaways".

You're lost? Why, did you miss the 407 ETR off-ramp? :lol:

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The downloading happened long before Miller. Shit flows downhill. Chretien-Harris-Lastman, naturally the costs were transferred down.

Naturally? I suppose if you make tax cuts a priority over services. Again, you don't give Miller any credit for the mess he inherited due to downloading (and arguably, amalgamation another Harris "gift").

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No, didn't say that.

So Harris closed the hospitals because he wanted to then, not becuase he had to? Even though he grew the province's revenue and supposedly replaced the federal funding cuts through sound managmeent and cut taxes? What is he, a sociopath?

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Health care spending was up despite the reduction in transfers from the Feds.

Service and wait-times and staffing were worse but spending was up? Are you sure you're defending this guy?

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They have not built 18 new hospitals. That's their plan, but they have not built 18 new hospitals. Not even close. Also, the plan is in doubt, obviously due to a lack of money:

Nope youre wrong. Your link doesn't say how many hospitals were built, or cancelled (hint: 6 additional 'planned' hospital projects were cancelled). Actually, as at YE 2011, the new construction count stood at 15, with 8 underway at THAT time. Including upgrades/expansion/refurbishment, there were 24 projects underway (ie hammers in hand) in 2012 and another 30 projects in various planning stages. The 6 cancelled/postponed were from those 30.

Completed by YE 2011:
1. William Osler Health Centre (Brampton)
2. Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
3. West Parry Sound Health Centre
4. Peterborough Regional Health Centre
5. Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre
6. Mattawa General Hospital
7. Runnymede Healthcare Centre (Toronto)
8. Bloorview Kids Rehab (formerly Bloorview MacMillan Children’s Centre, Toronto)
9. Health Sciences North
10. Pembroke Regional Hospital
11. Sioux Lookout Meno-Ya-Win Health Centre
12. Sault Area Hospital
13. North Bay Regional Health Centre
14. Woodstock General Hospital
15. Sarnia, Bluewater Health

Under construction at YE 2011:
16. Niagara Health System
17. Bridgepoint Health (Toronto)
18. St. Joseph’s Health Care (London)
19. St. Joseph’s Healthcare (Hamilton)
20. Cornwall Community Hospital
21. Halton Healthcare Services
22. Humber River Regional Hospital (Toronto)
23. Women’s College Hospital (Toronto)

OnTheIce @ Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:21 pm

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I never said he was solely to blame, but Chapter 11 is the section on MOE and cabinet, and where the MOE and Cabinet are blamed. Would it matter if it was chapter 2 or 12?

Doesn't matter what chapter. Just funny to see you link to only 1 chapter that supported your point. That Harris was mainly to blame.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You're lost? Why, did you miss the 407 ETR off-ramp?

Just funny to see another leftie referring to tax cuts as "giveaways". Some would say that when Liberals cut taxes for corporations, as McGuinty has done it was a 'genius' move...yet Harris was just bowing down to his corporate overlords. :lol:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Miller didn't inherit a mess fresh from downloading. He inherited a mess due to a a sub-par Mayor before him. Sure, there were some challenges and he took those challenges and made them WORSE.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

He's not a money waster, like you and the Ontario Liberals. I know making things more efficient and closing or moving things that are underused just isn't in your vocabulary, so I don't expect you to understand.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Completed by YE 2011:
1. William Osler Health Centre (Brampton)
2. Royal Ottawa Health Care Group
3. West Parry Sound Health Centre
4. Peterborough Regional Health Centre
5. Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre
6. Mattawa General Hospital
7. Runnymede Healthcare Centre (Toronto)
8. Bloorview Kids Rehab (formerly Bloorview MacMillan Children’s Centre, Toronto)
9. Health Sciences North
10. Pembroke Regional Hospital
11. Sioux Lookout Meno-Ya-Win Health Centre
12. Sault Area Hospital
13. North Bay Regional Health Centre
14. Woodstock General Hospital
15. Sarnia, Bluewater Health

Two of those stood out right away and I bet if I looked into the others, you'd be counting renovations as "new hospitals". I'm surprised Ajax isn't on there, they added a wing to it.

You can't take claim for hospitals that have been there for 50 years. Runnymede opened 50+ years ago and Peterborough hospital has been around since the early 1900's.

BeaverFever @ Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:54 pm

$1:

Doesn't matter what chapter. Just funny to see you link to only 1 chapter that supported your point. That Harris was mainly to blame

Well how many chapters should there be on one subtopic? :roll:

$1:

I guess you didn't catch my joke about the 407 ETR. Let me spell it out for you: built with public money, given over to private consortium for a fraction of its value, special laws passed so that ETR Corp must be the only private entity in Canada that can take away your driver's license and if they say you owe them money, debts owed to ETR are specially exempted from consumer bankruptcy protection laws. EDIT: Oh ya, and the province is prohibited from building any other highways near the 407 ETR so as not to provide competition. That's a corporate give-away. But yeah, tax cuts for corporations I'm not a fan of either.

$1:

Miller didn't inherit a mess fresh from downloading. He inherited a mess due to a a sub-par Mayor before him. Sure, there were some challenges and he took those challenges and made them WORSE.

It was both.

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So health care is a waste of money? We had the WORST wait times in the country!

$1:

Two of those stood out right away and I bet if I looked into the others, you'd be counting renovations as "new hospitals"

Nope, do your homework. Peterborough previously had 2 dilapidated facilitiesL Peterborough Civic Hospital and St. Josephs's Health Centre at 2 different locations. They built a Regional Health Centre (ground broken 2005, completed 2008) on the Civic Hospital site and then demolished both old buildings. Also note that Regional Health Centre is not just a bigger or shinier Civic Hospital; it provides the highest category of hospital services (i.e. full range of facilities). You should know that the Ministry drew up the plans for PRHC in '99 but it was idle under Harris. Similar story with Runnymede: old hospital demolished, new hospital more than double the bed space, a range of new services and facilities, etc. Bloorview was an amalgamation of hospitals into a newly constructed facility as well - ground broken 2004, completed 2006.

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