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As Gaulois pointed out, calling people and our society 'pitiful' only insults us, and does your cause further harm. Start insulting people, and whatever you have to say afterward will only fall on deaf ears.<br /> <br /> That's why people don't understand you, and why they <u>don't want to</u> understand you. You know the kid in the grocery store that is screaming at the top of his lungs because Mom won't buy him what he wants? Does anyone listen to him? Or, do they want to have 5 minutes with him out behind the woodshed with a willow branch?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

   

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] As Gaulois pointed out, calling people and our society 'pitiful' only insults us, and does your cause further harm. Start insulting people, and whatever you have to say afterward will only fall on deaf ears.<br /> <br /> That's why people don't understand you, and why they <u>don't want to</u> understand you. You know the kid in the grocery store that is screaming at the top of his lungs because Mom won't buy him what he wants? Does anyone listen to him? Or, do they want to have 5 minutes with him out behind the woodshed with a willow branch?[/QUOTE]<br /> Obviously it is not falling on deaf ears and on occasion, an enterprising kid who's had enough fucks off on his own. People sure do panic when that happens, don't they <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> <br />

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel]<br /> Obviously it is not falling on deaf ears and on occasion, an enterprising kid who's had enough fucks off on his own. People sure do panic when that happens, don't they <img align="absmiddle" src='images/smilies/lol.gif'> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think that the comparison between Quebec separatists and a child throwing a tantrum is apt; Quebec keeps threatening to run away because Canada isn't giving them what they want. If they actually did, they would soon realise that there is no circus to join and they are hungry and cold. But they may not have a home to return to at that point...

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Samuel]<br /> Obviously it is not falling on deaf ears and on occasion, an enterprising kid who's had enough fucks off on his own. People sure do panic when that happens, don't they <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think that the comparison between Quebec separatists and a child throwing a tantrum is apt; Quebec keeps threatening to run away because Canada isn't giving them what they want. If they actually did, they would soon realise that there is no circus to join and they are hungry and cold. But they may not have a home to return to at that point...[/QUOTE]<br /> Oh please, quoting my off-the-cuff reply to DC's analogy as serious is plain silly. Quebecers want what most Canadians would love to have if they took the time to comprehend it and had the guts to fight for it.

   

Samuel, don't misunderstand me; I agree that the current federalism is broken, and I believe that something must be done. But separation is just running away from the problem, instead of trying to fix it; there are many ways to run a country. There are separatists in Alberta as well; why is it that no Quebec separatists have ever suggested forming a *new* confederation with separatists from elsewhere? Unless such a suggestion is included, I can only conclude that Quebec separatism is nothing more than a tantrum.

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse] Samuel, don't misunderstand me; I agree that the current federalism is broken, and I believe that something must be done. But separation is just running away from the problem, instead of trying to fix it; there are many ways to run a country. There are separatists in Alberta as well; why is it that no Quebec separatists have ever suggested forming a *new* confederation with separatists from elsewhere? Unless such a suggestion is included, I can only conclude that Quebec separatism is nothing more than a tantrum.[/QUOTE]<br /> Current federalism is broken? You're just 138 years off, there's no fixing it <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'>

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br /> Current federalism is broken? You're just 138 years off, there's no fixing it <img align="absmiddle" src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Care to address the rest of my post? Why should Quebec not work with people unhappy with federalism in the ROC?

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse]Care to address the rest of my post? Why should Quebec not work with people unhappy with federalism in the ROC?[/QUOTE]<br /> What, you think Quebecers will suddenly align themselves with a recent fringe group of activists simply because we share the same end plan? We are 30 years into this, organized, autonomous and the motive is not entirely financial.

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel]<br /> What, you think Quebecers will suddenly align themselves with a recent fringe group of activists simply because we share the same end plan? We are 30 years into this, organized, autonomous and the motive is not entirely financial.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Ah, so a tantrum, *and* arrogance. You complain that people do not understand the Quebec separatists, while at the same time dismissing any other separatists without any effort to understand them. If a centralist Canadian government is the problem, I would think that the alienated west would share most of the same concerns as Quebec. Or perhaps that is not the problem after all?

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse]Ah, so a tantrum, *and* arrogance. You complain that people do not understand the Quebec separatists, while at the same time dismissing any other separatists without any effort to understand them. If a centralist Canadian government is the problem, I would think that the alienated west would share most of the same concerns as Quebec. Or perhaps that is not the problem after all?[/QUOTE]<br /> What the hell are you taking about? No matter what I would of replied this was just a setup to twist it into something it is not. I'm sure if whomever you speak of contacts <a href="http://www.souverainete.info">Le Conseil de la souveraineté du Québec</a> for advice, they will gladly reply. You are a fool to assume we share every other group's motives for Sovereignty.

   

[QUOTE]<br /> You are a fool to assume we share every other group's motives for Sovereignty.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You are a fool for assuming that you do not share anything with any other sovereignty group. You dismiss them as a fringe group rather than actually admit that they may be able to contribute something. Quebec is not the only region with a unique identity, and Quebec is not the only province alienated by Ottawa. I am merely trying to point out that you are living inside of your own comfortable box despite the reality outside.

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse]You are a fool for assuming that you do not share anything with any other sovereignty group. You dismiss them as a fringe group rather than actually admit that they may be able to contribute something. Quebec is not the only region with a unique identity, and Quebec is not the only province alienated by Ottawa. I am merely trying to point out that you are living inside of your own comfortable box despite the reality outside.[/QUOTE]<br /> Some backseat philosopher you are, bullshitter rather. Where did I say we "don't share anything with other sovereignty groups"? Why don't you start by naming one afterwhich I'll read about them and come back and point out the differences if any. You're accusing me of something I have yet to do you dumbass.

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Some backseat philosopher you are, bullshitter rather. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> As Dr Caleb said, insulting your audience is the fastest way to get them to stop listening.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Where did I say we "don't share anything with other sovereignty groups"? <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Right here:<br /> "What, you think Quebecers will suddenly align themselves with a recent fringe group of activists simply because we share the same end plan?"<br /> <br /> So, if you share the same end plan, and it is not true that you share nothing with other sovereignty groups, then what is preventing Quebec separatists from joining up those other groups to form a stronger force? Is your own box so comfortable that you cannot conceive of non-french allies?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Why don't you start by naming one afterwhich I'll read about them and come back and point out the differences if any. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Feel free:<br /> <a href="http://www.separationalberta.com/faq.asp">Separation Party of Alberta</a>, as one example.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]You're accusing me of something I have yet to do you dumbass.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Again, insults only hurt your argument. If your argument is strong, then you do not need to attack others.

   

Just because ONE sovereigntist here shoots off his mouth about things he doesn't understand, doesn't mean ALL sovereigntists are of such a stripe.<br /> <br /> Quebec's 'bureaucracy' leaves Switzerland looking like an anarchy, in fact the largest problem with Swiss democracy (and nobody said it was perfect) is the LACK of bureaucracy. One swiss government historian said the most boring job in the world is a swiss government historian. The swiss have literally indoctrinated corporatism into their political system, in other words, it is commonly considered that what is good for swiss corporations is good for Switzerland.<br /> <br /> Quite correct that the current government, like ALL current liberal democracies, leans toward centralism. UNLIKE other liberal democracies, the swiss actually have tools to combat such federalism. As I pointed out, in the new Quebec there is no mechanism for the PEOPLE to get involved in politics, just as there isn't in Canada. In Canada there are very few ways, but the assertion that nobody in the ROC is trying is WAY off base. The BQ itself is proof of that as it exists within canadian federalism, it became a power using the mechanisms canadian federalism.<br /> <br /> Likewise the conservative party is much the same, it continues to morph as westerners continue to bash their heads against the Ontario-Quebec sealing.<br /> <br /> So 'sovereignty' is an apt word, notice how nobody is saying 'democracy' for the 'new' Quebec. In many elections voter turnout is no better in Quebec, and many people were severely irked when the PQ dumped all its grassroots political mechanisms as soon as they were elected.<br /> <br /> So no need to dumb everything down, we've got politicians to do that, likewise, one sovereigntist here does not speak for an entire province or group. Sovereigntists have VERY legitimate claims, no matter HOW they are voiced.

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Samuel] Some backseat philosopher you are, bullshitter rather. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> As Dr Caleb said, insulting your audience is the fastest way to get them to stop listening.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Where did I say we "don't share anything with other sovereignty groups"? <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Right here:<br /> "What, you think Quebecers will suddenly align themselves with a recent fringe group of activists simply because we share the same end plan?"<br /> <br /> So, if you share the same end plan, and it is not true that you share nothing with other sovereignty groups, then what is preventing Quebec separatists from joining up those other groups to form a stronger force? Is your own box so comfortable that you cannot conceive of non-french allies?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Why don't you start by naming one afterwhich I'll read about them and come back and point out the differences if any. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Feel free:<br /> <a href="http://www.separationalberta.com/faq.asp">Separation Party of Alberta</a>, as one example.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]You're accusing me of something I have yet to do you dumbass.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Again, insults only hurt your argument. If your argument is strong, then you do not need to attack others. [/QUOTE]<br /> You're completely out of your mind. Now you just added "non-French" people to your twisted list of things I haven't said.<br /> <br /> I had a feeling you initially had the Separation Party of Alberta in mind. FYI I did read everything there was to read on their website including their proposed policies. In fact I started a thread on your own website about them.<br /> <br /> I still don't understand what you're trying to get at. The SPA and the Québec sovereignty movement have next to nothing in common and as far as I'm aware of, they have not tried to enter into formal talks and much less been turned away by each other. Is this is some sort of fantasy you have that separatist groups will rescue you from Federalists because Canadians are too pathetic to do so?

   

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