Vive results - Page 2

Although it is nice to see actual actions, an other "result" that I find probably the most fascinating and perhaps with the most potential is this "Canadian Microcosm". By this I mean we can find on *one* wide open Internet forum, Canadians from all locations and from all political allegiances ready to engage in Canadian Sovereignty discussions, with all the upsides and all the downsides that this implies. Where else other than the Ottawa HOC can we have people from Western, Central, Eastern, Maritimes, South, North, cities, rural and remote areas meet and discuss to further our country? And all of this without the political parties agendas and posturing. So this is a really good environment to test ideas, acquire a more country wide perspective, get contacts, etc... IMHO, that is a bit of a DD seed in the making. There are of course a few shortcomings at this point that limit the usefulness of this microcosm. The most noticeable IMHO is the lack of participants of two important groups: First Nations people (other than Janis from down south) and Quebec francophones (that are not separatists). Being the only FHQ here certainly feels most bizarre. The bilingualism practiced on this site is also most representative of how Canada actually operates. I hope we can improve in these areas too in the months ahead. Perhaps our article and discussion environment could be improved to be more welcoming to new types of participants?

I agree with the above comments, and in fact I think one of the reasons behind this is that relatively few people know of the site. How many people are apt to get involved in such discussion is another question, I know my wife has zero interest in hearing much about politics (probably my fault since I usually have bad news) let alone arguing or writing about it online. What would really be cool in the future is if we actually could teleconference, or voice conference and have serious discussions. I found this site quite by accident so I think it could be better marketed if that's at all possible. Perhaps we, or the owners of the site could design brochures which could be printed off and delivered door to door. I know few people would do this, but I would be one of them so it's better than nothing.

We could certainly associate an MSN or a yahoo handle to our profile and try out an online voice conference chat at a prescheduled time in the future on a specific topic, such as DD. This assumes that people have a decent broadband connection and proper voice gear. A scheduled online chat at the chatter log facility is an other possibility. That would be yet an other very interesting result.

A number of Vive participants, e.g., Kevin Gagnon, have suggested ways to publicize the site and perhaps obtain funds for further action. Marcarc's suggestion is another good idea. If we had access to a 'Vive' poster, brochure, etc. (doesn't have to be anything fancy, just something you can put in a mailbox, on a grocery store bulletin board, telephone poll, etc.) sanctioned by the Vive board, we could print these off ourselves and begin a community campaign that was consistent across the nation. A small start, but a start. Unfortunately, these good suggestions seem to vanish off the charts pretty fast. I'd be happy to aid in this regard and check into a few things. Unfortunately, artistic design is not one of my talents so I couldn't create something on my own that would appeal to anyone. As I indicated before, not everyone who may be interested in preserving their nation and values may be accustomed to or amenable to the manner in which some Vive participants choose to express their thoughts, and most would anticipate fairly quick access to an easily understandable 'point form' type of list of Vive goals. So, some thought needs to be given to what people will see when they get here and who those people will be. We need to ensure we're understandable and palatable to a broad cross section of Canadians, not expect that these people should work to understand us or adjust their own preferences, e.g., some people are just put off by profanity and over the top rhetoric, to suit our way of doing things. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

An important result or shortcoming that is worth mentioning is the recent churn of one of our deareast and perhaps most appreciated member. As hopefully the most impartial observer of what happened (i.e. I can work with any committed federalist or separatist as long as they are ready to make it work!), I will state that there were several Quebec focussed threads that our hard core sovereignists were engaged on discussing with various hard core federalists. Most people had disconnected from these threads as they tend to be repetitive, do not add much value, and generate a lot of bad vibes. The threads propagated at several occasions what I can only literally call hate stuff. On the other hand some Vive participants have never had the opportunity to discuss with Quebec sovereignists and I thought that their participation was most useful as long as they could manage the hateful stuff. We are afterall focussed on Sovereignty and there are many many lessons to be learnt out of the Quebec sovereingty whether we agree or not with their plight. Selected hateful extracts from canada.com forum (or Le Droit) should not have been propagated IMHO in the first place. One of our moderator was actively participating in one of the thread, issued too some controversial opinion, and got tired of some of the insinuations made over these hate threads and locked the threads without warning. I do agree that these threads had far exceeded their usefulness and should be (or have been) locked, or at least some of them. It had become impossible to track (even for the ones losely monitoring them), to check for insults being exchanged, and the threads were all over the map. Several people tripped over these very slippery threads. These threads generated by far the most clicks on this site which I suspect was causing grief amongst many. Perhaps there is a lesson there for a more engaged Canadian Sovereingty... Michou felt that it was totally unfair to lock these threads and she therefore left on that basis from what I understand discussing this with her. I hope she agrees with my version as she perhaps still lurks on occasion. It is unlikely that Michou will come back and I deeply miss her participation. She readily engaged in many other topic areas and generally provided new insights into the Quebec (&Canada) Sovereingty issue IMHO. I hope we all learnt lessons on the need for restraint and the danger of dealing with stuff that is close to being hateful. I have certainly had my share of disagreements with Samuel and "Delenda Carthago" but am glad I can benefit from their perspective (and from Cathou too). I hope that all Vive members can stick to the high road of Canadian (or Quebec) Sovereingty, learn from this episode and be more welcoming to everyone. We still need more Francophones federalists from Quebec or the ROC and still do not have a representation from the First Nations. The Vive microcosm could definitely do better than the real thing.

Gaulois, Thank you for directing me here and explaining what has happened to my Michou. I am very sad right now. I will email her. I have no idea what is going on on most of the forums because I really do not have the time to keep up on all conversations and if I know I cannot give something to the conversation I don't go and I feel neglectful when I do participate and then cannot go back and follow up. Thanks again Gaulois.

I emailed michou yesterday and told her we missed here. Haven't heard back yet. I fully support the comments made by gaulois in this regard. Kind of brings to mind the old 'never discuss politics and religion' advice I'm sure most of us heard in our early years. Unfortunately, given the political nature of Vive, following that advice would create a pretty empty site. In terms of the Quebec sovereignist threads, my expressed view was that the productive purpose of these threads petered out after the first few posts. People who, like myself, were not fully aware of the Quebec sovereignist viewpoint had this information fairly early on in the threads. Where either side presented information that was in either sides view erroneous, the errors were corrected. When it started become one side trying to change the views of the other, it became a waste of time, particularly for ROC contributors. The thread would be productive id is was started in good faith by an individual asking 'I'm a Quebec resident whose wondering whether Quebec should separate' and was seeking information/advice on which to base their decision. However, for any topic the committed ranting at the committed is wasteful and counter-productive. Maybe it made people feel good to get their views, opinions off their chests however, it did nothing good for the site or the goals we all claim to be pursuing. michou is a person who believes in Quebec sovereignty however, as indicated by gaulois, she contributed much of value to many threads on the site, certainly moreso than many other contributors. Samuel also has contributed interesting thoughts to other threads when he chose to do so. As I've indicated before, anyone who is truly interested in forwarding Vive goals concerning Canadian sovereignty should endeavour to keep the site one which will not alienate any Canadians of any background or political stripe who come upon it before it has a chance to get its message across. It can't be a site where people are baited into 'hate' or other counter-productive discussions or attempt to do this with others. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] As I've indicated before, anyone who is truly interested in forwarding Vive goals concerning Canadian sovereignty should endeavour to keep the site one which will not alienate any Canadians of any background or political stripe who come upon it before it has a chance to get its message across. It can't be a site where people are baited into 'hate' or other counter-productive discussions or attempt to do this with others. [/QUOTE] .. and that is why he have moderators with the power to lock threads. It only happens when the thread is off topic, or if things have devolved into baiting and counter-productive discussion. It's nothing personal, please don't take it as such.

Which makes perfect sense, as does choosing to absent oneself from a discussion prior to its deteriorating to a point where a moderator is forced to make this choice.

I didn't get into those last few threads, but noticed one called, 'why I hate separatists' by the name alone it incites anger, which is why in part, I chose to stay out. Hate is a strong word, disagree, or oppose the views is one thing but when you say you hate a person, you make it personal.

It is unfortunate that Michou has decided to remove herself from participation here. She was one of the civil voices in those threads. If she chooses to believe that locking those threads was 'censorship' directed toward any one person or group, well, that's up to her. I have to agree with Calumny, that no one in those threads were willing to have a debate where both sides were considered, and that the whole debate was concluded early on. The threads were ruled by passion, not logic. There was much 'painting with a wide brush' going on, rather than dealing with people on an individual basis. As a moderator, I have to read everything posted. As a moderator, I should have locked and banned users for multiple violations of the FAQ. As a Canadian, I could not read what I did and not post. I became non-objective by pointing out inconsistancies and obvious errors in logic. In trying to further a debate, all I recieved was scorn, insults and the same old tired lines over and over. It is a shame, because there was some good viewpoints that gave me a broader vision and understanding of the separatist movement. We're still a young site, and I shouldn't have bothered to warn people about the direction their comments were heading. After many years on many discussion forumns, I can spot a troll, and I can see the direction a particular topic will go. My pledge to you, the readers: If topics that invoke such emotional responses such as but not limited to: Quebec, Capital Punishment, Abortion etc., appear; I won't warn, I will lock and ban users before such things get that far out of hand. Kudos to all those who showed the restraint I did not, and simply glean information from such subjects.

Never having volunteered to be a moderator (to some extent do to a lack of desire on my part to be involved in these very issues) I would not be in a postion criticize any of the Vive moderators. Having visitted a number of 'forum' sites, I believe the individuals moderating the discussions here are extremely fair and open-minded in treading what is a pretty fine line at times. If you spend a fair amount on-line, you can easily become inured to what in the real world is considered unacceptable...coming to accept forums with people ranting, swearing and just generally relieving themselves of whatever garbage they're carrying as being 'normal'. Attempts to guide the behaviour into more productive forms generally receive the 'censorship' tag. The concept of conducting one's behaviour and tongue in a 'polite' way may have fallen out of vogue the past few decades, bowing to some perceived 'right' held by every human to spew out and have accepted every ludicrous opinion they may hold in whatever manner the choose to do so. It needs to be reclaimed. I'll reiterate that the main goal of anyone using Vive or professing to forward Vive goals should be to keep the site accessible and inviting to all, particularly those not inured to the rough and tumble of some forums and who aren't interested in searching through a sludge of insults, profanity and general idiocy to find the gem Vive is trying to deliver. Moderators should not find themselves in a position of having to 'police' member behaviour. I commend Dr. Caleb on his post. You won't see many sites with moderators who would do the same.