Vive results

In the absence of a response, I will volunteer a strawman one. The key "results" that I observe (as a relatively newbee) are: 1) Vive provides an excellent platform to publish Canada wide activist types of articles that the standard media (including Rabble) would not otherwise publish for various reasons. And more importantly, it provides a discussion forum for these articles. So this makes it a real good place for creative juice to meet and refine ideas. 2) Vive also provides an excellent forum platform to discuss actuality and standard media coverage in key activist areas. 3) Vive reach is Canada wide or aligned platform and would provide well for activist issues requiring actions at a federal level. There seems to be sufficient representation from many segments: city/rural, east/west/central/Maritime?/North?, First Nations, francophones?, new Canadians? 4) The meetup linkage provides yet an other excellent platform to further engage discussion toward actions. It is unclear at this point how succesful these meetings are (at least in Vancouver where I am from). 5) The petition area has generated a number of activist petitions. This is a very noticeable Vive results. The tool is definitely there. It would benefit at this point IMO with more "self-moderation" from its participants so that articles, postings and discussions are more organized and conducive to actions and results.

I think just the fact that there is a forum for like-minded people to get together & see that there are many other people who think the same thing is very empowering. I think there should be a ViveleCanada.ca presence at parades, rallies, protests, etc though.

Yes I agree that visibility is good, but also the fact that people can find other people who are committed to Canada helps to give that support to act. Letters to the editor and to politicians are good tools, and by bringing the issues here we know how to respond. Before I was introduced to vive, I really thought the country was going down the tubes fast...it gave me hope!

As a relative newbie myself, I'm not sure it's entirely appropriate for me to comment. However, that's never stopped me before. Before commenting, I think Vive can be an important site and is reflective of a lot of work done by all involved and I have no wish to offend anyone. Knowing that others share your concerns and having a forum for discussion is great. However, at times people can confuse the discussion of an issue with actually doing something to address the issue. Eventually the discussion of issues of concern should progress to action. Petitions and letters to the editor, MP, etc. are tools that can be used. However, I don't know how effective these generally are beyond leaving the signatory/author with a feeling of having 'done something'. I'd really appreciate being made aware of some examples of results achieved through these methods at any level higher than the municipal for an issue that a government wasn't already in the process of addressing. My own observation has been that successful citizen initiated change and gains at levels higher than the municipal has generally been limited to 'soft' issues, e.g., disability, child benefits, that don't in the end cost much; will make a government look good and don't take significant effort or risk to implement. These types of issues allow a government to look like it's doing something while, like the convenient health care, CPP, etc., issues governments love to raise when required, deflecting attention from sovereignty, globalisation, democratic issues. People need to realize that if these sovereignty, globalisation issues aren't dealt with, nost of the 'gains' made in the soft areas will eventually be lost. I think gaulois raised good points and a very important point in his last paragraph. For Vive to be effective it needs to remain focussed on its stated mission and goals. A 'newbies' view of Vive, based on the articles/topics published, could be that the site is all over the place. Articles are sometimes repetitive in the point being made and not always easily identifiable as being directly related to the mission and goals of the site. I mean, how many articles do you need outlining some slight variant of the message that globalisation isn't in the best interests of most world citizens? The reality is that if Canada becomes inextricably entwined with US policy and democracy gives way to a corporate oligarchy, all discussion concerning 'progressive'and environmental policy and Canada's place in the world becomes moot. This being the case, it seems advisable that the Vive focus be on providing hard facts and numbers concerning the impact of foreign economic control, globalisation, loss of sovereignty/identity on the average Canadian and developing strategies to counter these threats. While in may not palatable, the fact is that articles describing the negative impact of corporate or U.S. policies on the third world or any area beyond most people's day to day experience will not hit home with most Canadians. Nor will articles filled with left or right-wing rhetoric and buzzwords. The reality is that the issues of greatest concern, while for us having a Canadian focus, do in fact transcend politics and are in the long-term, big picture view directly related to the future success of the human species in general. What may hit home with Canadians is easily accessible, validated information concerning the number of jobs Canada, particularly small to mid-size communities, lost as a result of NAFTA, the extent of foreign control of our economy and land, environmental impacts future Canadians will have to live with, etc. For example, I live near a number of lakes surrounded by cottages, homes, etc. Word is that many of these are owned by U.S. citizens. I'd like to know how many, the extent to which this exists across the nation and whether selling prime land to foreign interests, particularly when the market may be inflated beyond Canadian means solely as a result of U.S. dollar purchases, e.g., home which could normally command 100k Canadian sold for 150k Canadian to U.S. citizen who has paid approx 100K U.S., is okay by most Canadians. Also, I've been led to understand that many of the small and mid-sized communities in my neck of the woods lost significant employers, and suffered as a result, to Mexico and the southern US as a direct result of NAFTA. Is this true here in Ontario and throughout Canada and, if so, what are the facts and numbers? As gaulois has indicated, beyond expressing our thoughts and opinions, what tangible and productive actions can we take to achieve identifiable results? How can we focus on a few key issues and network to spread a consistent message to our friends and neighbours across Canada, and what should those issues be? How can we get most Canadians to wake up and get on-board, without the possibility of alienating many through the use of rhetoric that turns them off? My understanding is that most web surfers will spend no more than two or three minutes on a site before moving on, so it's important that they find the information they're seeking pretty quickly. As most are probably here to find something out about Canadian sovereignty, identity and democratic issues, it's important that this information be more or less 'in their face' upon their accessing the site. I don't think anyone wants to see Vive become a web site inhabited mostly by 'regulars' endlessly gnawing on the same bone or preaching to the already converted. There are enough of these types of sites available already.

While I agree that endless discussion without any direction or action may seem meaningless in the long run, I think that discussion does help to inform those who seek another view. I have learned much from other posters and appreciate the different points of view, even when I disagree, but often it does make me look at issues which I wasn't aware of before. The direct action I think people can take is to go beyond the subject brought up here and do some external reading and research, either books or other internet sites, read the government websites and get informed, then write to our elected officials and request answers. I did that with the new proposals for Health Care in Alberta, the news was reporting one thing, but the actual proposals are quite different. My MLA actually wrote an article in a local paper which said we have nothing to fear, when in fact we have plenty to fear. I wrote a rebuttal in a letter to the editor, quoting the document my MLA sent me. It is easier and better to refute a statement if you are quoting their own material. At the very least these letters to the editor help to get people thinking, especially if your letter is direct to the issue and not just a rant. The letter to the editor is the most read portion of any paper, so it is effective.

I agree with you CWC, write letters, express yourself, put yourself on the line. Its all a part of the growth process. There is no way to know what the average internet surfer is going to be looking for right now. So I think the best idea is to keep sharpening our ideas so that they will eventually be sharper than hell. Keep refining the information, removing the chaff so that when called for it is all there, ready to go. I think that we need to know what is going on all the way around the globe. We are not alone and we had better come to grips with that. If people are starving to death somewhere on the planet in this day and age then what right do I have to feel good. Too often we ignore what we can't fix and by doing so justify the plight that is caused by our ignorance. I think we are supposed to pay attention to all that goes on on our planet. If we don't we are not playing with a full deck.

I appreciate what you're saying. I believe everything is fixable. However, to use yet another of my seemingly boundless supply of cliches, you can't do much to assist others without first getting your own house in order. Getting the Canadian house in order is a necessary first step towards being able to aid in the efforts to put the world house in order. It is in many ways a bizarre world we humans have hitherto created for ourselves. I often feel a sense of unreality when I see 50 foot cruisers filled with drunks traversing the canal near my home and realize that in the time it takes one of these monstrosities to clear the canal locks several hundred people elsewhere in the world may have died of starvation, lack of clean water, disease, ad nauseum. But, feeling crappy about it isn't going to help me or anyone else. All we can do is our best to try changing it. And that has to start here. We just don't want to spread ourselves too thin.

For some reason, I felt this thread started by gaulois could be revisited. Vive is a relatively new site and still growing. As I mentioned in a previous thread post, I think it can serve a valuable purpose. So, what's it accomplishing now? Well, it certainly gives those on the pro- con- side of provincial separatism a place to meet, bicker and endlessly chew over the same bone. It's a great place to do a quick post of articles from elsewhere on the web concerning the latest U.S. act of malfeasance or conspiracy theory. Seems like it's well on its way to becoming yet another site infested by primarily by those with chips on their shoulder or a ready insult for others. Certainly a great place to air one's personal gripes and grievances. But, what about Canadian sovereignty? Does anyone outside of the regular columnists have time to write an article or start or contribute a reasonably well thought out, backed by fact comment in a forum thread about any area concerned with the practicalities, e.g., economy, law, values, inherent to building the sovereign nation we all claim to desire? Some members do. However contributions increasingly seem to be either a off the top of the head one or two liner or of an emotional 'I hate you...you're stupid' nature. A number of longer comments are just a rehash of facts available to anyone elsewhere on the web without any new, original insights from the author. Articles or forum thread that require any level of thought seem to receive few comments and are quickly replaced by yet another 'Why you wouldn't want Bush to marry your daughter' article or a 'Who's the cutest Premier' or 'Why I hate everyone' thread. My initial little 'grassroots' effort was to publicize Vive in my area. However, lately I've been embarassed to do so because so much of what's recently appeared on the site has little obvious relation to an effort to build Canada or Canadian sovereignty. Much would just be of an embarassing nature to those who may not be acquainted with the rather low standard of conduct and thought accepted in the rough and tumble world of web forums or those who aren't into that part of the web world concerned with international (or inter-dimensional) conspiracy. So, what exactly is Vive accomplishing right now in terms of forwarding Canadian sovereignty? What is the average member doing in this regard, beyond yapping about how much they care or sending letters/petitions to Ottawa (great way to keeping public servants fully employed in answering Minister's mail, etc.). What about those people just looking for basic information concerning Canadian sovereignty and national issues, without any political flavouring or anti- this or that posturing? Where should they go? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

Vive is a wonderful tool. I think we could use it better. I am most grateful to Susan&Jesse, our moderators and the many others that make Vive such a precious thing. It is very easy to drift away from this. I will remind you of what Hans Blis was telling us couple weeks ago at UBC: it is important to show restraint and be very careful with the gathering of intelligence for preemptive strike purposes. And this does not apply only to Bush&Co.

Calumny, I don't know if you have answered this question anywhere else on the forum or the site but I haven't read your answer to: what brought you here to Vive? Were you looking for something on Canadian sovereignty? I came here specifically because of a letter to Paul Cellucci from an author and journalist named Silver Donald Cameron. It was prior to the Iraq war and I read the letter on I think it was Common Dreams website and they linked me to Vive. I was surprised there was a Canadian site that Common Dreams picked up from. I was so happy to find others that were feeling the same way I was and had concerns I had. It became a lifeline. I live in a rather isolated part of BC and it was, and still is, good to have this connection. Since I became a member and have talked and yelled and complained for what seems like a very long time, I do wish Vive would take the direction of an activist site. A site where we could actually advertise and support policy rather like Moveon.org, only, Canadian. This would require our membership to grow and that we commit to financial contribution in order to achieve such goals. I still would like us to be on Stats Canada's case about the Lockheed Martin contract. I want that retracted. I want us out of NORTHCOM. I want NAFTA redrawn. I want foreign ownership capped. I would like support for these concerns and I think Vive is a good gathering place for such supporters. I am a person that prefers action to long winded discussion although I have no objection to those who prefer that having input on Vive. You be the wind source and I'll build the turbines! I have to pretty much limit my activity to letter writing, phone calling or faxing etc. because of my geographical disadvantage. I love where I live, it's an endless inspiration for doing art and studying astrology but I do find it a drawback to being an activist! In summary I would support Vive being more of an activist site.

I read Mel Hurtig's book 'Vanishing Country.'After I read it this september I seriously can't stand the liberal party. They make me sick. I really enjoy this website because it's nice to have issues concerning Canadians being addressed. If I could wish upon a few things is I wish people like Mel Hurtig,Canadian Action Party and the council of Canadians would get together with the NDP and form a new strategy to win the election. If all of Canada new what sellouts the Liberals have been I'm quite sure they would kick them out of office! All what was in Mel's book made sense. We can build Canada into a fair, caring and just society. All the progressive people in Canada need to get behind the NDP. I don't like hearing people who voted Liberal but liked the NDP platform. The NDP has to run a campaign on something the Liberals can't steal from them. This is were the NDP should capitalize and run it on keeping Canada independent and telling Canadians what has happened to this country.!! I too agree with 4Canada that this should be more of an activist and left wing site. It's not as if people with conservatives values can't be proud Canadians it's just that the Conservatives and Liberals are the parties that have been the biggest sellouts towards this beautiful country. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cry.gif' alt='Cry'>

4Canada, actually, I happened on Vive from a link at 'The Hammer'. For some time prior to that, I'd been thinking about the state of my nation (thoughts I'm a bit ashamed to say I'd more or less abandoned after my early twenties.). Anyway, it was a serendipitous event (for me, anyway.). I've prefer a lot of discussion before action to provide some guarantee of success and obtain ideas from many sources to create the best possible 'tool' for action. I agree that at some point people need to stop yapping, over-intellectualizing, etc. and start doing. And there's a place for in-depth analysis of an issue and a place for an easily digestable summary of the main points. And, as I've indicated elsewhere, I agree with dino that neither the Liberal or Conservative party are likely to do what is 'best' for most Canadians. However, while most Canadians are probably much more 'progressive' than they realize, most probably won't be characterizing themselves as 'NDP' in the foreseeable future. Canadian sovereignty transcends political leanings. To achieve the nation you've indicated as desirable, it will be necessary to get a majority of Canadians, of different background, culture, political leaning, etc., on board. This has not been achieved in the last forty years and the clock is ticking. I believe many, or most Canadians, have serious concerns and/or feelings of unease about their nation. These may just circulate around the periphery of consciousness without any clear understanding or focus. Many people may not relate these to 'Canadian sovereignty' issues, or feel there is anything they can do to influence events in their nation. It's those people you want visiting sites like Vive and getting on board. And if you start publicizing Vive in your community in a 'have concerns about Canada - visit Vive Le Canada' type of context, bereft of political jargon, it might start happening. However, if the first thing people see is a 'Bush is an idiot' article or 'Why Ontario, Alberta, Quebec sucks' type of forum title or a series of insulting comments directed by members at one another, most won't stick around long. It's nice to have a place to vent, rant, etc. However, in my view the mission of Vive and sites like it is too important to get bogged down with articles, forum threads and comments that, while they may satisfy some personal need, belief or personal agenda of the member, serve no constructive purpose in forwarding the site's mission, encouraging membership growth or creating the nation most Canadians may desire. I agree with gaulois that we should appreciate the efforts of the Susan, Jesse, etc. in providing this site and should be making every effort to help it reach its potential. These are just my thoughts. I'm not saying I'm right. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

This is a pretty good website as it is, I've no complaints, although once there are more members to our 'cincinnatus.ca' website I will probably spend more time there than here. I was already pretty active so most of the news here is not new, and there's really only so often that I can read the threads on quebec sovereignty. My interest is in direct democracy in practise (which is why I ran and will run again). I was looking for anything that could give me ideas on what canadians think. One observation is that most threads are carried on by relatively few people so that I know most peoples views, although I note that there are quite a few views. So there seems to be a fair number who read it for entertainment value, or else feel their ideas have already been presented. Just as an aside, it was at this site that I decided to go to the protest in Ottawa. After I shot my keyboard off here I felt I was doing too much talk and not enough action. I've now got an article for a local underground newspaper and on saturdays I volunteer at the 'food not bombs' soup kitchen for the homeless. It wasn't this site per se that motivated me, more like the site motivated me into the 'talk is cheap' category. Indymedia sites I find are better for the hard core activism, while this site is a good introduction for those who are not yet aware we need activism, or are too scared to start.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Just as an aside, it was at this site that I decided to go to the protest in Ottawa. After I shot my keyboard off here I felt I was doing too much talk and not enough action. I've now got an article for a local underground newspaper and on saturdays I volunteer at the 'food not bombs' soup kitchen for the homeless. It wasn't this site per se that motivated me, more like the site motivated me into the 'talk is cheap' category. Indymedia sites I find are better for the hard core activism, while this site is a good introduction for those who are not yet aware we need activism, or are too scared to start.[/QUOTE] That's excellent to hear that vive played some part in your involvement. Talk *is* cheap, but it's an important starting point. Thanks for the feedback!

Talk IS cheap-but it's not something to give away. I don't think the administrators of the site should feel anything but good about the contribution they are making. Obviously on the internet there is only such much one can do, and 'talking' is the main recourse. If we were talking more fundamental action, I think some links to boycott sites would not be a bad idea or else some articles with such items. 'Buying canadian' is almost always a good idea, unless it's Irving (stay away from Majesta and Cavendish french fries) and lists of links of online canadian companies, particularly in the staples department would be helpful, but again, there is only so much one site can, and maybe even should, do. As was on another post a very interesting bit of information to have would be knowing just how much property is owned by, dare I say,'foreigners'. I remember somebody remarking that you could hardly walk around the coast of Nova Scotia because most was owned by germans. I think this is especially important since I've seen a few endorsements of property rights on here. If we discovered that the majority of private land was owned by non-canadians I think it would affect that argument somewhat.