Teachers Going on Strike?
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Motorcycleboy @ Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:55 pm
Bonzo Bonzo:
I don't understand you Canadians. Why don't you fire them and re-hire teachers as independent contractors like we do in Texas. We also encorage private schools. Unions are nothin but trouble, and now you know why.
I like the Texan approach. ONE RIOT. ONE RANGER!
Motorcycleboy @ Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:58 pm
lily lily:
Teachers want a 15-per-cent wage increase, better working conditions, including smaller class sizes, and restoration of full bargaining rights.
Hmmm...
600,000 students ÷ 42,000 teachers = ~14 students. Even if every teacher works part time, that still leaves us with ~29 students per teacher.
Of course, I'm using the old math.
Hmmm...
600,000 students ÷ 42,000 teachers = ~14 students. Even if every teacher works part time, that still leaves us with ~29 students per teacher.
Of course, I'm using the old math.
Lily, I'm glad I agree with you tonight. You are well briefed on this one and I think you'd eat me alive if we were opposed.
The weakness of Richard's argument becomes apparent as his insults become more crass.
Dayseed @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:16 am
Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:
Ooh, scary. All that "Union Solidarity." Let 'em have their so-called "General Strike." It's only going to affect the public sector unions anyway. We don't live in France dayseed (thank God!).
It's only going to affect the public sector unions? I'm talking about the teacher's union. If you fire one in ten teachers, the TEACHER'S UNION will strike. That's union solidarity. Jesus.
$1:
The public servants were out in Ontario in March 2002 for over 2 weeks. Guess what happened? NOTHING! Nobody even fucking noticed! The only time I even gave it a thought was when I crossed a picket line to enter a government building one day and a few of them gave me some lip. That's all they were capable of though. A lifetime of soft government clerical life does'nt turn one into an intimidating physical force to be reckoned with!
Irrelevant. You missed the point AND didn't bother to address the other salient points of the argument. Nice.
$1:
Dayseed: What the hell do you think is going to happen? Do you honestly believe that teaching is simply standing in front of a class of kids reading from a text-book? In Ontario, Harris pissed the teacher's union off so bad they implemented work-to-rule situations.
$1:
Yep. They did. They also went on strike repeatedly as teachers aren't prohibited from doing so here. You know what? They almost went out under teacher friendly Mcguinty this year too. And under Bob Rae's NDP? Yep, you guessed it. They went to war against his Government over it's "Social Contract." Of course they didn't get a whole lot of sympathy then considering the province was in the midst of a recession, struggling with double digit unemployment, and most people were struggling just to put food on the table.
And what does this have to do with the power of teacher's union strikes? Or firing the whole lot of them? My point was that teaching is more than simply standing at the front of a room. Or, in your case, the teacher was the person who put the stamps on your lessons. However, you can attack the union, but it doesn't address the salient point. Oops!
$1:
Starting to see a pattern Dayseed?
I betcha it's not the same pattern you want me to see.
$1:
The Toronto Sun ran an article a couple of years ago during the height of the Harris-Teacher battles. It started with a quote that went something like this;
"Ontario teachers are sick of watching the Provincial government fight its fiscal deficit on the backs of students. The OSSTF is concerned that these relentless attacks on public education are putting the future of an entire generation of Ontario students at risk...blah, blah, blah."
Then they ran the date this paragraph first appeared. It was in 1975 under the Bill Davis Government.
This whining, militant union shit has been going on for decades. Finally though, it appears people are waking up to it. At least in BC.
"Ontario teachers are sick of watching the Provincial government fight its fiscal deficit on the backs of students. The OSSTF is concerned that these relentless attacks on public education are putting the future of an entire generation of Ontario students at risk...blah, blah, blah."
Then they ran the date this paragraph first appeared. It was in 1975 under the Bill Davis Government.
This whining, militant union shit has been going on for decades. Finally though, it appears people are waking up to it. At least in BC.
Mindless teacher-bashing. Off-topic, angry and irrelevant.
Lily,
You old hound-dog! You didn't address a damn thing I wrote! Either I'm so on topic you can't refute it or I just scare the living piss out of you to this day! Gotta love me!
Dayseed @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:22 am
lily lily:
Second... "Nursery" programs aren't affected by this strike. And show me a class where a teacher is dealing with 29 special needs kids.
Lily, this is where your "math" starts to veer off into fantasy land. Agreed, teacher's don't have a class of 29 special ed kids. Maybe there's four or five? AND GUESS WHAT THAT DOES TO CLASS AVERAGES ELSEWHERE? Uh-oh, I guess simply dividing kids by teachers isn't the best method after-all.
$1:
They're usually integrated into the class 2 or 3 at a time. Sometimes there are a few more, most times a few less. However, you're forgetting that Special needs kids also have access to a teaching assistant - who is NOT receiving strike pay yet.
TAs are irrelevant to the topic at hand.
$1:
The 2 of you are ignoring that the district-wide averages are just that... district wide. I'm not comparing a school here in Delta with one on the outskirts of Kitimat.
Oh, you're not comparing a school in Delta to a school near Kitimat? So taking the ENTIRE load of provinical students and dividing it by the TOTAL teachers ignores both these schools or examines them individually? That explanation doesn't wash and just buries you a little further.
Richard @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:09 pm
Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:
lily lily:
Teachers want a 15-per-cent wage increase, better working conditions, including smaller class sizes, and restoration of full bargaining rights.
Hmmm...
600,000 students ÷ 42,000 teachers = ~14 students. Even if every teacher works part time, that still leaves us with ~29 students per teacher.
Of course, I'm using the old math.
Hmmm...
600,000 students ÷ 42,000 teachers = ~14 students. Even if every teacher works part time, that still leaves us with ~29 students per teacher.
Of course, I'm using the old math.
Lily, I'm glad I agree with you tonight. You are well briefed on this one and I think you'd eat me alive if we were opposed.
The weakness of Richard's argument becomes apparent as his insults become more crass.
No kidding you both agree neither of you can see past what you percieve to be correct. There is no way possible for Dayseed or myself to accomplish your education so to avoid a further waste of MY time I will jsut bow out.
picklegirl @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:17 pm
The teachers haven't even had a chance to discuss all that you are debating. They haven't had a negotiated contract for 12 years. That is what they are striking over.
SwampoO @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:30 pm
picklegirl picklegirl:
The teachers haven't even had a chance to discuss all that you are debating. They haven't had a negotiated contract for 12 years. That is what they are striking over.
you tell these old typewriters picklegirl, you tell em
ShepherdsDog @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:50 pm
Let see, using number provided by Lily and Motorccycle Boy
Lily wrote:
$1:
Bottom line - the teachers work ~9 months of the year, for ~6½ hours a day
A blatantly untrue generalization. This may be true for some, but not all teachers, many of whom put in scads of unpaid hours coaching, running clubs, marking papers, doing lesson and material preperations. As a principal and a teacher my wife was in school by 8 AM everyday and was usually in her office util 5 or 6 pm in the evening. Over the summer months, she was in the school making sure that all yearly maintenance was done, i.e painting, stripping and waxing of floors, shampooing of the carpets, general repairs due to wear and tear as well as vandalism. Budgets had to be planned, the library had to be updated, teacher assessments had to be completed. There are many teachers who are useless tits, but that is the fault of the division , for hiring sub standard teachers.
Then Lily asks:
$1:
Then why all the fuss about class size?
and adds
$1:
There are ~30 kids in my son's class - the number of special needs kids is irrelevant.
So using your numbers and simple math, a teacher works 6.5 hours. Take away 1 hr for lunch, a half hour for recess and half an hour for gym. That leaves 4 and a half hours for teaching time or 270 minutes. Divide that 270 minutes by the 30 students and you have each student getting only 9 minutes of the teacher's time. And you don't think that smaller class sizes are important?????
With all the crap that the education system is pushing on kids how much time can be dedicated to important matters such as math, science, reading and writing, rather than teaching kids how imortant it is to accept little Jenny has two dads or little Abdullah is offended by Piglet and girls in schools. Motorcycleboy wrote:
$1:
Once again, tell me how teachers are hard done by? Last I heard, BC teachers were the best paid in Canada. They get 70k+ a year. Excellent pensions, summers, Christmas and weekends off. Medical, dental. What more do they want?
Nice sweeping generalization here too! Don't cops and other civil servants get a decent benefits package too??
$1:
I got this number from the BC Teachers Federation site. They put the top rate for a Vancouver school teacher at $67000 based on their 2001 contract
$1:
Senior Teachers in T.O. make more than 70 k. For 9 months work!
TOP RATE FOR SENIOR TEACHERS in your own words. Not all teachers are senior teachers earning top rate, yet you insiuate that all teachers are making this rate of pay. Did you as a constable earn as much as a Sgt. or an Inspector?? Cost of living is also factored into this pay, as well as other incentives needed to place teachers in unfavourable locations. My wife and I checked teaching positions in Arctic Bay Nunavut. Starting pay there is 46 000 - 85 000 a year plus 20 000 for northern allowance. Why so high?? Well when you pay $ 15 for 4 l of milk to start, plus being Santa's next door neighbour it is hard to find people who want to go there. Supply and demand runs the world and determines wages.
A friend of mine in Taipei can charge $ 50.00/hr(tax free), just to sit and have a conversation with a doctor wanting to improve his english skills. Seems obscene, but that is the value the market places on his skills and training.
ShepherdsDog @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:36 pm
$1:
I put in scads of unpaid hours too - I coach, volunteer in the school library and computer lab, I sit on the board at gymnastics...
last time I checked you weren't paid for being a parent. You choose to enroll your child in these programs. Being involved in your kids activities is part of being a parent. No comparison.
$1:
Your math has a flaw in it though. Why are you dividing total teaching time by the number of students? Do the teachers actually spend their time one-on-one? Or do the teach the lesson to the whole class?
Where is the flaw? That's the maximum amount of one on one contact that each child can expect over the course of a schoolday. That isn't a lot of time for assessment. Even the most gifted child needs a little more contact time than that.
ShepherdsDog @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:32 pm
I'm busy. Sometimes I get called away while I'm in the middle of a post and then come back and finish it.
Motorcycleboy @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:58 pm
$1:
Shepard's Dog WroteSo using your numbers and simple math, a teacher works 6.5 hours. Take away 1 hr for lunch, a half hour for recess and half an hour for gym. That leaves 4 and a half hours for teaching time or 270 minutes. Divide that 270 minutes by the 30 students and you have each student getting only 9 minutes of the teacher's time. And you don't think that smaller class sizes are important?????
Well, when I went to school, 30 students per class was about average. I fail to see how schools are turning out a better end product now than they were 15 or 20 years ago. And where are all these teachers going to come from? Many teaching, nursing and policing jobs are going unfilled these days due to the fact the baby boomers are beginning to retire. Large scale hiring of extra teachers is going to further dilute the applicant pool and result in a lower quality teacher. You'd think the unions would be opposed to that. Of course, all those new hires will still pay dues. Maybe that has something to do with it, eh?
Don't just take my word for it. Try the CD Howe institute at;
http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/commentary_215.pdf
$1:
Shep Wrote: 8O With all the crap that the education system is pushing on kids how much time can be dedicated to important matters such as math, science, reading and writing, rather than teaching kids how imortant it is to accept little Jenny has two dads or little Abdullah is offended by Piglet and girls in schools.
You and I agree on that one.
Motorcycleboy wrote:
$1:
Once again, tell me how teachers are hard done by? Last I heard, BC teachers were the best paid in Canada. They get 70k+ a year. Excellent pensions, summers, Christmas and weekends off. Medical, dental. What more do they want?
$1:
Shep Wrote: Nice sweeping generalization here too! Don't cops and other civil servants get a decent benefits package too??
Yes they do. And I'm not one to support the public servant unions when they go out either. As for cops, I haven't seen any Mounties running around with picket signs lately. They're prohibited from striking. Oh wait, so are the teachers! Maybe the cops have a little more respect for the rule of law than Jinny and her crew.
$1:
I got this number from the BC Teachers Federation site. They put the top rate for a Vancouver school teacher at $67000 based on their 2001 contract
$1:
Shep Wrote:
TOP RATE FOR SENIOR TEACHERS in your own words. Not all teachers are senior teachers earning top rate, yet you insiuate that all teachers are making this rate of pay. Did you as a constable earn as much as a Sgt. or an Inspector??
$1:
Motorcycleboy wrote: Senior Teachers in T.O. make more than 70 k. For 9 months work!
TOP RATE FOR SENIOR TEACHERS in your own words. Not all teachers are senior teachers earning top rate, yet you insiuate that all teachers are making this rate of pay. Did you as a constable earn as much as a Sgt. or an Inspector??
No, of course I didn't. Nor should I have. Apprentice plumbers make less than plumbers with 25 years in the trade too. Every career has its salary ladder. The fact remains that if a teacher stays at it long enough, they'll get there.
PostManPat @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:44 pm
( Oct 15 )
Well It Seems That I'll Be Out of School For Another Week 
Snow @ Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:56 pm
I know what you mean man. I just want to get back to do nothing for 6 hours then coming home and learning. Shep your totatally right about the time thing, especially in highschool, since i only see each of my teachers for an hour and 15 minutes a day. Their are about 29 students in each class. So if a teacher has a lesson for 45 minutes then that's only 30 minutes left for question, etc. But all I really need teachers for is the occasional question and marks. Otherwise their useless to me.
ShepherdsDog @ Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:26 am
Here's a perspective from someone who has been around the block as a teacher in BC.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_lang/20051014.html
Scape @ Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:07 pm
$1:
Sinclair has the backing of the leaders of the Canadian Auto Workers, B.C. Government Employees' Union, Hospital Employees' Union the Canadian Union of Public Employees and many more.
Sinclair indicated the 470,000-member federation's campaign in support of teachers could escalate if there's no resolution to the dispute.
Sinclair indicated the 470,000-member federation's campaign in support of teachers could escalate if there's no resolution to the dispute.
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