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Would Canada have been able to develop its much vaunted Social welfare system if we didn't have the US and its military right next to us? I think it is because they were/are there, that we were able to avoid huge military spending and invest instead in health care and education. What are your opinions on this matter.

   

I think its baloney... The social programs developed mostly in the 60s at a time when defence spending was still equitable with other NATO countries and we were in the middle of the Cold war. Regardless its hardly our fault that we border the US and they see us as as important strategically, that's geography its not as if we towed ourselves next to them. I get sick and tired of Americans and their Canadian apologists telling me how we get a free ride, I always ask them ok how many US combat troops are stationed in Canada? how many US warplanes patrol Canadian airspace? how many US Navy ships patrol Canadian waters? the answer of course is none. The fact that America would see an attack on Canada as tantamount to an attack on its own territoty isn't at our request. We have never asked them to defend us they choose to do it themselves yet they get upset with us anyway

   

I think it's because we don't have a lot of enemies. We maintained reasonable relations with Russia and Cuba throughout the Cold War. We trade and use diplomacy. We aren't known for sending military advisors to train death squads or using our military to our corporations access to materials and cheap labour.

   

You're starting to scratch the surface there Rev. Our greatest threat has never been from countries from who we are an ocean apart, but rather from the one to whom we are cojoined. If the U.S. thought they could invade Canada, without a massive military response from all of our friends and allies, they would do it in a New York minute.

   

hahaha, you are a joke. We trade with the USA without them we are a ghost town.

And the only thing we trade with Cuba is; you give us sunshine and we will give you people to absorb it.


37th Parliament, 1st Session

   

We have pretty much the same enemies.

In WWI and WWII (it was the axis), in the Cold war (it was the USSR), in Gulf War I and II and Afghanistan (it is Saddam and the Islamists).

Canada was involved in GWI, and is involved in BOTH GWII and Afghanistan regardless of what your media tells you.

Canada is one of five countries mentioned directly by Bin Laden as fair game for attack and there are as many as 50 terrorist groups working in Canada right now.

The communist North Vietnamese were not your enemy because you didn't participate in Vietnam War. I honestly don't know if you were in Korean War and don't care enough to look it up.



I think Canadians often confuse what they can do with what they would do if they could.

You are a small country in many ways. You don't have the clout to do much
in the world without hooking up with allies. So we don't really know what Canada would do if it actually had the ability to "project".

From what I have seen on this site, Vive Le Canada, CBC, etc...; I don't get the impression that Canadians are any better than other Peoples. You are full of corrupt, greedy, militaristic (to the degree possible by your size), etc... people just like most other countries in the world.

I don't doubt for a minute that we could sit around and criticize Canada's foreign policies all day if you were powerful enough for anyone to give a f*ck.

You don't get criticized like the USA, not because you are a better People, but because you aren't a superpower and can't do the things the US does, even if you wanted to.

Have a good day,

Welsh

   

Canada particapated in Korea. In fact after the U.S. and Britain we sent the most troops to Korea. As well Canadian soldiers particapated in in key battles during the war.

   

Will we ever get past this same old annoying argument of needing to be protected by the US? As I have done several other times on this site I will pose this question; who is threatening to attack us right now?

Historical enemies;

Germany -- nope
Russia/USSR -- nope
USA -- nope

Potential adversaries;

China -- nope, but incapable of doing so anyways
Brazil -- not unless you count trade embargo over airplane manufacturing
India -- nope, but incapable of doing so anyways

Third World maniacs;

North Korea -- incapable of doing so
Iran -- incapable of doing so
Cuba -- incapable of doing so

Terrorists;

El Qeada -- yes
Tamil Tigers -- nope
IRA -- nope
Hamas -- nope
PLO -- nope

So, out of all these adversaries, one might attack us. Just who do we need the US to protect us from? The fact is Canada is protected by the same admirals that protect the USA from attack, Admiral Pacific and Admiral Atlantic. No nation on Earth except the US is physically capable of attacking us. And let's be honest Gunplumber, they aren't marching across the border anytime soon.

So please, let's end this right wing argument that the US has to protect little old Canada. It is a FARCE! Even if we did spend more on the armed forces, the Conservative platform calls for amphibious assault ships or a helicopter carrier, heavy tanks and the JSF plane. How will these protect us from El Qaeda? They didn't protect the USA from 9/11. Spain has an aircraft carrier and a larger army than us but they still suffered from the subway bombings in Madrid. A large military establishment does not equal safety from terrorism.

Besides, like IcedCap mentioned we didn't get a fully developed system until Pearson came into office, several years before Trudeau and the decline of the armed forces and spending on them.

   

Canada's potential enemies:

1) China. China needs oil and its needs for oil are increasing. Canada has oil and Chinese control of Canadian oil puts the USA at a strategic disadvantage. Do the math. China is building a blue-water navy and currently can deploy twelve modern destroyers with sixteen older destroyers. More importantly, China has over 300 support ships to supply and protect their capital ships. As it stands, Canada is not a match for China and (absent US assistance) China could feasibly occupy a fair chunk of BC. Chinese plans indicate that they will deploy their Russian aircraft carrier sometime in the next few years and they have two hulls on the ways at Dalian that some sources estimate will be escort-carriers or helicopter carriers. China also has shipyards that can and do scratch-build military vessels. Canada has the two facilities at Esquimalt and Halifax that could be used to produce capital ships but the dockyards themselves would need extensive work to bring them up to modern standards.

Canada assumes the USA will defend Canada but what if Hillary Clinton, a friend of China, gets elected? What if John Kerry, a pacifist, gets elected? What if Americans don't want to risk American lives to protect Canada?

Canada does not need to be strong enough to defeat China, just strong enough to deter them.

2) Quebec. The enemy within. A divided Canada will be easy pickings for everyone. An independent Quebec is an uncertain quantity and may pursue territorial and economic ambitions after the new state is established.

3) The USA. Just as Canada should not depend on the USA to defend Canada, Canada should also not depend on the USA to forever be peaceful. A Canada-China alliance could readily enable a US President to invade Canada to prevent basing of Chinese military components in Canada. This is feasible as a simple matter of politics. Also, a US political situation could be expediently mitigated by scapegoating Canada much the same way Yugoslavia suddenly became a matter of paramount importance to Bill Clinton on the eve of the Monica Lewinsky affair.

4) Russia, but not anytime soon and probably only in their dreams.

5) Japan might get nasty over fishing rights, but would be unlikely to be a threat to Canadian territorial sovereignty. Worst case scenario would be a group of Japanese Aegis escorting fishing fleets in Canadian offshore waters.

6) A unified Europe might become a threat as they define themselves as a nation and inevitably start to miss the good old days of colonialism. French influence could also lead to problems between Canada and a United Europe over fisheries and oil and, no doubt, the French would stir up intrigues in Quebec to distract Canada from European avarices.

   

China could be more of a threat then anyone realizes. They're modernizing there military and recently Chinese defectors have revealed the extensive intelligeance network they have created.

Canada Targeted by China Agents

Chinese dragon awakens

Old China file finds new value

Defectors say China running 1,000 spies in Canada

Falun Gong wants Ottawa to check claims of Chinese spies in Canada

   

It might be now, but it wasn't in the Cold War. Then it was American B-52's and American bombs and American-Canadian DEW line type defense against the Soviet Union.

Of course, that's getting to be some time ago...







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What if monkeys start yodeling competitions?

Whatever equations you want to hypothesize, America always has to defend Canada, whether it wants to or not, whether Canada wants it to or not.

There's just to much at stake, too much of a border, economies too closely integrated, et c. for it not to.





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I agree to some extent although the United States doesn't always have to defend Canada if Canada can produce its own means of defence. As Bart says, if Canada produces a means to defend itself, the U.S will less likely intervene on Canadas behalf although will Canada ever tell the U.S NO for their help? Hmm not likely. Your right in that the U.S will do whatever it takes for their safety BUT if Canada can show the U.S their teeth and claws it might deter the U.S a little bit in terms of them invading on Canadian soveriegnty.

   

Remember i like Military spending. BC would be protected right now theres enough forces to deture an attack from china.

But I hope planned upgrades to CF-18 doesnt get cancelled and plan to buy F-22 Raptor, or F-35 JSF goes through. Hopefully they will still keep CF-18's in service.

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/marpac/shi ... tion_e.asp

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/4wing/ ... dron_e.asp

I think China taking the north is more realistic then BC. Canada really needs money taken from the North to be sent building Ships that can go there year around and a base (instead of social programs keeping the Libs in power). The north is resource rich and will be threatend as it gets warmer there, As more ships use it for a trade route

   

I agree. Perticularly with your last sentence.

It's a lopsided relationship, and it has to be that way. It's the difference between Canada having no say in it and having some say in it.




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