Re-thinking Immigration
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:39 pm
Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:
andyt andyt:
Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:
I like it when people complain about the lack of space for more people in this country. Everyone should drive across this country, Vancouver to Halifax, at least once in their lifetime. Would silence most, especially if you break down or otherwise get caught up in the middle of nowhere.
And your point in regard to this topic is? Everyone should drive around Vancouver, TO or Montreal and then talk about all the space there is. But I don't really recall lack of space in the hinterland as being one of the points of discussion about immigration.
It does when people start to complain about "overpopulation," which inevitably is the result of immigration.
I haven't heard anyone complain about overpopulation except in places like TO, Vancouver or Montreal.
I also like the idotic reasoning that we need more people to pay for our aging population. Actually, the reasoning isn't idiotic so much as family class immigration tends to fuck up the rationale behind mass immigration.
andyt @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:00 am
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
I haven't heard anyone complain about overpopulation except in places like TO, Vancouver or Montreal.
I also like the idotic reasoning that we need more people to pay for our aging population. Actually, the reasoning isn't idiotic so much as family class immigration tends to fuck up the rationale behind mass immigration.
I also like the idotic reasoning that we need more people to pay for our aging population. Actually, the reasoning isn't idiotic so much as family class immigration tends to fuck up the rationale behind mass immigration.
And those cities are overpopulated.
Even without family class, it's idiotic because the people we import now to help pay for the current old folks will in turn become old. How many people do we have to import to help pay for the people we imported to pay for the current old people? Sounds like a pyramid scheme, and at some point even the teeming masses of Asia won't be enough to supply our needs. And of course the fact they will also need people to pay for their old people, that problem is just a couple of decades further down the road for them. By that arithmatic, we'll soon be living the "Make Room, Make Room" dystopia. They made a movie from that called Soylent Green.
westmanguy @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:09 am
I'm just wondering when we'll drop this term "visible minorities"
Big new in Van yesterday is whites will fall below 50% in Metro Van by 2031 (it has to be already the case). 61% will be visible minorities.
I support immigration, but multiculturalism has to bee looked at more carefully...the Vancouver experience for me has been we're all integrated and get along in school and work but we all self-segregate in our personal lives.
There is a rise of white ethnoburbs in Vancouver...River District, Steveston. This is bound to happen. You see white dominant neighbourhoods on the rise all over in Vancouver now as people feel alienated and seek some similar Anglo folks...
ShepherdsDog @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:58 am
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
westmanguy @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:58 am
I think its important to not necessarily tie being a native "Canadian" to being Caucasian or Anglophone/Francophone. Our country has always been incredibly diverse since our founding.
I do by and large see the 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants (i.e. those whose parents are born in Canada) as more or well integrated into the larger Western/secular culture. Foreign-born Canadians and those whose parents are born abroad will never fully be integrated. This just tends to be the nature of things.
Its just immigration is all clustered into the major urban centres. I find the concept of "multiculturalism" a farce in Metro Vancouver. Whites *have* to be a minority by now, but they'll be 41% apparently by 2031 here in Metro Vancouver.
But the ethnoburbia will continue to become more and more stark. There's a joke that goes around here that asks "What river runs between China and India?"
"The Fraser River" (i.e. between Richmond; Chinese and Surrey; Indo). Immigration is hitting these urban centres so quick that its not giving things enough time for the new Canadians to root themselves a generation or two and get integrated into the larger culture. When I look to meet new people or friends I could care less about race. But its just so happens that all but 1 of my close friends is white. My one non-white friend (she's Indo) is pretty much white-washed is from the Christian part of India. I find the new Canadians while well-mannered enough stick to their own and have very little interest in interacting with populations outside of their groups.
And even one generation down, where the kids are born in Canada, they still have parents that are born abroad and culturally fragmented. You really have to get to the generation where the parents are born in Canada to achieve a true level of integration.
I'm not gonna lie though. I get the psychology behind it. As a white Anglo here in Vancouver, if I stay, I'll probably settle in neighbourhood more European in its makeup because Richmond or Surrey offer little to in terms of widening my network.
GeeGeeMcFee @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:20 am
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
1) multiculturalism is our identity - name one other trait that is associated with our Canadian identity that immigration is destroying
2) these people take jobs that we are either too lazy or otherwise unwilling to do - yet the lines of white & pampered people at the unemployment office are long (I'm not working at Mcd's or Tims if I lose my job so I'm just as guilty)
3) these jobs often pay very little - so where else do you think they are going to live? Mind you even our "ghetto" is better than where they came from.
I say let them come. If you want less, reproduce more or convince our own EI recipients and welfare junkies to clean hotels and drive cabs.
EyeBrock @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:37 am
GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
1) multiculturalism is our identity - name one other trait that is associated with our Canadian identity that immigration is destroying
2) these people take jobs that we are either too lazy or otherwise unwilling to do - yet the lines of white & pampered people at the unemployment office are long (I'm not working at Mcd's or Tims if I lose my job so I'm just as guilty)
3) these jobs often pay very little - so where else do you think they are going to live? Mind you even our "ghetto" is better than where they came from.
I say let them come. If you want less, reproduce more or convince our own EI recipients and welfare junkies to clean hotels and drive cabs.
What a load of bollocks propaganda.
When you go overseas, people don't say; "Canadian? Oh you guys are famous for multiculuralism."
Lefty lies, just like you guys wanted us to be famous for 'peacekeeping' even though we contributed less than Bangladesh for decades.
This falls into the category of 'say the lie often enough and you believe it's the truth.'
bootlegga @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:39 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I agree with Boots that second generation peeps embrace Canada. Mostly.
Unfortunately we have encouraged ethnic silos in Canada. Especially in places like the GTA. Some cultures that define themselves with their religion prove very resistant to integration. That includes second and third generation ‘new Canadians’.
My experience is purely anecdotal but it is a result of being here for a couple of decades and interacting with a diverse population daily.
Those who have travelled past the vacation destinations of the Canadian masses cannot help but notice how great we have it here in Canada. We should be much pickier than we have been and are.
We can afford to be more selective.
There are plenty of people worldwide that have the educational and communication skills that will add to Canada.
Immigration shouldn’t be at the expense of our social well-being. Immigration should be to our advantage.
Saying that the ‘next generation will be ok’ is a bit of a cop out.
We have enough domestic social issues without bringing in gang members from across the globe to try out Toronto for size.
Immigrant criminals should be booted out quickly and those from cultures that are diametrically opposed to our mainstream values shouldn’t be encouraged to come here.
The whole refugee process is rotten to the core.
We take in dubious claims when millions fester in UN refugee camps across Africa and the Middle East.
We can be more selective and still get 300,000 + a year.
Unfortunately we have encouraged ethnic silos in Canada. Especially in places like the GTA. Some cultures that define themselves with their religion prove very resistant to integration. That includes second and third generation ‘new Canadians’.
My experience is purely anecdotal but it is a result of being here for a couple of decades and interacting with a diverse population daily.
Those who have travelled past the vacation destinations of the Canadian masses cannot help but notice how great we have it here in Canada. We should be much pickier than we have been and are.
We can afford to be more selective.
There are plenty of people worldwide that have the educational and communication skills that will add to Canada.
Immigration shouldn’t be at the expense of our social well-being. Immigration should be to our advantage.
Saying that the ‘next generation will be ok’ is a bit of a cop out.
We have enough domestic social issues without bringing in gang members from across the globe to try out Toronto for size.
Immigrant criminals should be booted out quickly and those from cultures that are diametrically opposed to our mainstream values shouldn’t be encouraged to come here.
The whole refugee process is rotten to the core.
We take in dubious claims when millions fester in UN refugee camps across Africa and the Middle East.
We can be more selective and still get 300,000 + a year.
A lot of good points here EB and about the only thing I take issue with is the ethnic silos comment.
The fact is we've had ethnic silos for decades, if not centuries here in Canada. Victoria's Chinatown has been around since about 1860 and that hasn't prevented Chinese in Canada from assimilating and becoming 'Canadians' like the rest of us.
Others like Little Italy, Little Poland, Greektown, etc all come to mind. Heck, we even have one that is province-sized (Quebec)!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:E ... _in_Canada
In the past, people settled in ethnic communities largely due to racism - many places didn't want to hire Chinese or Japanese or whoever, or if they did, the immigrant didn't have good enough English to do the job.
Nowadays, the biggest reason a lot of people wind up in ethnic silos is simply because they need support when coming here. They need help with the language, the culture, the climate and so on. Where better to get that kind of help than from others from your own country who have already made that adjustment?
While I admit that I worry that some ethnicities are more 'resistant' to assimilation (especially those that rely heavily on religion like Islam), all it takes is a walk down the street to cure me of that.
The subdivision I live in here in Edmonton is heavily Muslim (due to a Muslim academy/school opening a while back). Even though some of the kids may dress differently, go to DQ for lunch, chat about hockey and seem just as 'Canadian' as the next person. I know a few young adults from Muslim families that smoke, drink, and wear provocative clothing (at least in the eyes of some Muslims). Perhaps the ones I see are the exception and not the rule, but given their numbers, I doubt it.
This was an interesting read on the issue;
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri ... le4226087/
No, I have little problem with immigration, but I do agree we should be admitting those who will benefit Canada most.
GeeGeeMcFee @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:07 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
What a load of bollocks propaganda.
When you go overseas, people don't say; "Canadian? Oh you guys are famous for multiculuralism."
Lefty lies, just like you guys wanted us to be famous for 'peacekeeping' even though we contributed less than Bangladesh for decades.
This falls into the category of 'say the lie often enough and you believe it's the truth.'
So answer the question then. What "Canadian" national identity are the immigrants destroying? Are we not playing hockey any more, are the curling rinks shutting down? Do we have less snow, colder summers, less beer, are our dollar bills and coins inundated with dark skinned or slant eyed people?
EyeBrock @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:42 pm
,
GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
What a load of bollocks propaganda.
When you go overseas, people don't say; "Canadian? Oh you guys are famous for multiculuralism."
Lefty lies, just like you guys wanted us to be famous for 'peacekeeping' even though we contributed less than Bangladesh for decades.
This falls into the category of 'say the lie often enough and you believe it's the truth.'
So answer the question then. What "Canadian" national identity are the immigrants destroying? Are we not playing hockey any more, are the curling rinks shutting down? Do we have less snow, colder summers, less beer, are our dollar bills and coins inundated with dark skinned or slant eyed people?
Where did I say anything about 'destroying'? You should avoid putting words in peoples mouths.
My point was that pretending to to define ourselves by 'multiculturism' is an oft repeated, bright and shining lie. Saying it again still makes it a lie.
BartSimpson @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:18 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
Exactly. You don't see Mexico or Japan committing cultural suicide nor should we.
andyt @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:24 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
Exactly. You don't see Mexico or Japan committing cultural suicide nor should we.
Easy for you to say. We don't really have an identity, which is why we've latched onto multiculturalism - hoping the immigrants would give us some. Long before the Asian invasion we were wringing our hands about who we were and the best we came up with was "not Americans." Maybe one reason we are so successful in integrating immigrants vs the rest of the world - there's no strong culture here for them to get in conflict with.
Xort @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:45 pm
Nothing like trading our future for a short term labour solution.
Lets only let in skilled workers! Who cares what damage we are going to developing nations by head hunting their educated work force, they can come to Canada where no one will accept their education and work driving a cab!
martin14 @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:29 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
multiculturalism.....creating a ghetto near you soon, as it destroys a national identity
It is, and has always been, just a question of numbers, and time.
We are 15-20 years behind Europe, where the results of immigration based on complete
idiocy are pretty clear to see.
600+ 'sensitive areas' in France, 25% Muslim population in Brussels, and even in the UK,
some brave souls are now calling multiculturalism for the farce it is.
In fact, the most dangerous types in England are usually the second and third
generation immigrants that were supposed to be integrated, and didn't,
to the extreme.
We are running a dangerous game, and need to be very careful with who we allow
to enter Canada.
Our advantage only, and cancel family class for starters.
martin14 @ Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:31 pm
Xort Xort:
Nothing like trading our future for a short term labour solution.
Lets only let in skilled workers! Who cares what damage we are going to developing nations by head hunting their educated work force, they can come to Canada where no one will accept their education and work driving a cab!
Lets only let in skilled workers! Who cares what damage we are going to developing nations by head hunting their educated work force, they can come to Canada where no one will accept their education and work driving a cab!
Having been to some interesting places in the world, I quite agree a lot of those
funky degrees shouldn't be accepted until we can verify those people actually know
something.