Canada Kicks Ass
Global reports Deserter.

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SprCForr @ Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:02 pm

He tried and found himself to be lacking. At least he tried. He has been judged and sentenced by his peers and his men.

All these comments on this guys character are infinitesimal compared to what he's putting himself through right now.

   



camerontech @ Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:26 pm

SprCForr SprCForr:
He tried and found himself to be lacking. At least he tried. He has been judged and sentenced by his peers and his men.

All these comments on this guys character are infinitesimal compared to what he's putting himself through right now.


exactly, no matter what you call this man or think of him. He's doing it tenfold to himself

   



EyeBrock @ Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:39 pm

Clogeroo Clogeroo:
$1:
Don't rush to judge Clogeroo.

Bravado sat in front of a keyboard is easy, try the same with 7.62 rounds whizzing about you're head.

And don’t forget, these are press reports. Most of the media are no friends of the military. They love this shit, sells papers and ad space at the expense of some poor bastard we have judged without knowing the full circs.

You could be right the media could just be making things up but still.
As I said if I ever abandoned my fellow soldiers I’m serving with id shoot myself or would want to military to do it for me. Should do what Patton did slap a soldier across the face and send him back out to fight.


Not always a good idea! I remember examining the implications of that scene on a leadership course I took many moons ago in a very windy and wet part of Wales. In the Great War we would shoot guys with PTSD

Trauma can do strange things to people. This guy isn't trying to make out he's a hero, it's obvious from the quotes in the Globe he's a hurting chap. If indeed those quotes are to be believed.

MCB and I chatted about this and his quote was "When I was a 20 year old Pte I used to whine and second guess every decision made by my NCO's..."

It's not unlike the Romeo Dalliare matter. He was diagnosed with PTSD but the difference there was the Liberals made him into a 'hero' and then a Senator. Personally I think Dallaire is no hero but I do sympathise with his plight.

Maybe if this guy was a senior officer and not a Sgt he might have been treated with more understanding? Who knows.....

   



Scrappy @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:29 pm

I came across this article on another site and the accused tells his side of the story. Not being a soldier his story seems plausable and easily verified, so what did he do WRONG?

Ex-soldier tells his side of the story
GREG MCARTHUR

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

A former non-commissioned officer in the Canadian Armed Forces accused of abandoning his troops in an Afghanistan firefight says he stands by his actions and wakes up every morning with “self respect.”

The former soldier was in charge of a small group of Canadian soldiers that were among those ambushed in a Panjwai district marijuana field on Sept. 3 — the same ambush that claimed the lives of four Canadians.

In yesterday's Globe and Mail, four soldiers still in Afghanistan spoke out against their former commander, alleging that he froze in battle and fled from a mud-hut compound while a handful of his charges were pinned down by enemy fire. None of the soldiers who died that day were part of the firefight in question.

In an interview yesterday, the non-commissioned officer offered his side of the story, explaining that he had to leave the battle three times for various reasons: to reposition his section's light-armoured vehicle so it could open fire on Taliban gunmen, to check why the vehicle's 25-millimetre cannon was malfunctioning and to find a C6 gunner to help provide cover fire. He spoke to The Globe on condition of anonymity.

“My guys did great. They kept their heads down. They didn't move. They didn't freak out. When I told them to throw grenades, they did,” he said.

Now of course, now that it's after the fact, I realize they didn't necessarily know what I was doing — and that might have clouded their judgment,” he said, explaining that many of them saw him leave and likely asked “Where the hell is [he] going?”Part of the problem, he explained, was that his radio broke, which meant he couldn't speak with the light-armoured vehicle from inside the compound.

“My choice at that time was real simple. Either I tell one of my privates or corporals to get up during a firefight and run 15 or 20 metres and try to do something for me. Or I leave them exactly where they are covering their arcs, and then I do it.
“I needed to make sure that stuff was being done properly, I figured the best bet was to do it myself . . . Basically, it's being thrown back in my face. That's cool. It's all part of the job I guess.”

The soldier has since resigned from the military, a move that he says was prompted by a number of reasons.

Shortly after the firefight, he was wounded and flown back to Canada. Before he left, he was called in by a captain who asked him to sign a “note to file” — the military's equivalent of a blotch on an employment record.

He didn't get the chance to defend himself, he says, and when he found out he was going to be reassigned, he decided to pack in his long military career.

“It makes my stomach turn every time I talk about it,” said the middle-aged father, whose own father was a military man.

He also had personal reasons for resigning, he said.

“Being shot at isn't the greatest thing in the world, neither is being shot. After being wounded, I wanted to be around and spend time with my [family] as opposed to going overseas and make some extra money.”

He said a campaign is being waged against him by another soldier in his former section, who he accused of misleading his former charges. That soldier has openly accused him of abandoning him.
The former non-commissioned officer sees it differently. He alleges that, when he ordered his section to retreat to their vehicle, this particular soldier didn't listen and blasted the marijuana fields with cover fire.

He says he yelled at his charge, “What the hell are you doing? I told you to get in the vehicle,” but his subordinate refused to stop, so he left him.

The two have been long enemies, he said. He called his former subordinate “Mr. I-get-to-be-in-the-centre-of-attention.

“If I had shown some kind of gross cowardice under fire, don't you think I would have been immediately relieved of command?” he asked rhetorically. “I wasn't. There was no formal charges of any kind.”

But in previous interviews conducted by The Globe and Mail, other soldiers back in Canada have called the former non-commissioned officer's decisions into question.

When the ambush began, he ordered the troops to dismount. That rendered the light-armoured vehicle's cannon useless, because any fire would endanger Canadian troops, said Private Francois LePage, the man behind the cannon that day.

Pte. LePage said he could see movement around the compound and was itching to open fire, but couldn't. He kept yelling, “I see him. I see him,” and was repeatedly told by a superior, “Stop saying you see him. I know you see him.”

“It pissed me off because we could have killed them all,” Pte. LePage told The Globe in an October interview.

However, the former non-commissioned officer said the orders to dismount came from his superiors, Major Matthew Sprague and Lieutenant Jeremy Hiltz.

There were lots of things that went wrong on Sept. 3, the former non-commissioned officer said, especially the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's decision to drop leaflets on the village of Pashmul and give the Taliban advance warning of their arrival. That decision allowed them to plan an ambush, he said, but instead, he's become the fall guy.

“As far as I'm concerned, the guys are great guys and no matter what is written, ultimately it's going to hurt morale. If that means I get to be the bad guy because I'm out of the military and a [civilian], then I'll be the bad guy. I don't mind that.”

   



camerontech @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:40 pm

well that changes everything

   



Scrappy @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:54 pm

WDHIII WDHIII:
From reading the above its sounds to me like it was a question of tactics rather than ethics.... maybe some with experience could shed a little light on what should/could have been done instead?


That is how his side of the story came across to me also.

   



Scrappy @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:31 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll: :arrow: you are fallacy fallible Lilly. It would be nice if you tried to add to a discussion instead of zinging out meanless tripe filled on liners it must be hell being exanimate.. [moon] PDT_Armataz_01_33 [but] PDT_Armataz_01_07

   



Scrappy @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:59 pm

Lilly what it's like being dumb, unemployed and Liberal? I'm so sorry how much does the Ex pay you to sit on your rather ample ass? God bless him he got out alive???????????????????????? So how many years left until welfare cuts you off sunshine??????????????

   



SJ-24 @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:19 am

What should he have done? Good question. Battle is somewhere when you have to make decisions based on situations that can not perhaps be repeated elsewhere. For any of us with combat training to say we would have done anything different would be BS. I only question why these 4 men would open their gaps to the press anyway. They had nothing to win and everything to lose. What they don't realize is that senior leadership don't like soldiers with lose lips. They would rather have men and women who can keep their mouth shut and do their jobs. Any bitching should have been done inside the wire amoung themsleves, not CBC. My guss is all four men just toasted any great future they may have had.

As for the Sgt. He did what he had to do. I congradulate him for having made it out alive and with a whole new awareness of what bullets and grenades do to the human body. I had a grenade go off on an open range that hit several of us. The metal fragments helped me to become so fearful over the next couple of years that I would shake when I had a grenade in my hand....I normally passed them off to others to throw if we were in an open area. i would only use them when I had a foot of concrete between me and the grenade going off....I have a big nice scar on my shoulder to remind me of why those things are not toys. :? I can completely understand his point of how being wounded can really help motivate you to seek other employment. :wink:

   



2Cdo @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:46 pm

lily lily:
The soldiers have the courage to put their names to their statements. This guy doesn't.


Still think the man is a "coward" do you. :roll: Second guessing a decision made by someone in the heat of battle seems to be something liberals are good at. He doesn't need to give his name, those who NEED to know it already do, and an unemployed civvy like yourself is not one of them.

Try jumping off your high horse for once and quit making comments on things you know NOTHING about. :roll:

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:34 pm

$1:
Try jumping off your high horse for once and quit making comments on things you know NOTHING about


If we all got off our high horse and quit making comments about thigns we know nothing about, there'd be no one here. The thing you soldiers need to understand is that just because we non-soldiers have never been in combat doesn't mean we're not world-experts on the subject.

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Scrappy Scrappy:
Lilly what it's like being dumb, unemployed and Liberal? I'm so sorry how much does the Ex pay you to sit on your rather ample ass? God bless him he got out alive???????????????????????? So how many years left until welfare cuts you off sunshine??????????????


I don't think there's any need to resort to juvenile name calling, Fatty McButterpants.

   



SprCForr @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:37 pm

You're a world-expert on desertion?

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm

This is an Internet Forum, SprCForr. Haven't you noticed? Everyone here is a world-expert on everything.

   



SprCForr @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:55 pm

Damn! I better get busy!

PDT_Armataz_01_14

   



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