A Question For Opponents Of Bilingualism

Brenda @ Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:56 pm

Xort Xort:

Brenda Brenda:

A few people are a "problem"?

You said that it wasn't a problem, I pointed out a problem. Sure it's just one small nations, but the way you said what you did the implication was the Europe didn't have any problems with different langauges within a single nation. Depending on how the political winds blow the 'problem' might blow into a national split.

Europe as a whole functions. The EU does not. Belgium and their language "problem" is hardly a serious issue.

$1:

Ehmm, we do.
We do offer that.

How or rather why? You just said that without French or English you can come. What reason would you have to teach them a language they already know.

I take it you mean that I said WITHOUT English or French your visa will be denied? Yeah, that's true. For the principal applicant. The dependents do not have to prove their language skills.

$1:

Also my point was publicly funded education for adults that don't speak one of our offical languages, it's possible they are being educated without any government funding. Either way it's just another waste of effort in my mind.

If you want people that could be collecting welfare (if their spouse leaves them or something), use the healthcare system and get every benefit every other resident gets, you might want for them to be employable. If you bring Quebecois to BC, you might want to teach them English. Non?

$1:

You seem very keen about how easy it is to learn new languages, surely if you can do it, then everyone can. Logicaly then if you can't be bothered to learn the local langauge you shouldn't be able to immigrate right?

With your logic, maybe. Not with mine.

$1:

You missed a part. "or French

You said that getting by on those other languages should be good enough, the or French at the end isn't important because the first part of what you said was the part I was in contention with.
Also why are you calling me stupid for replying to what you said? Or did I answer my own question?

You still don't get it. Nor do you get the immigration system.

$1:

You are quite naive.

That is possible, but as brown and yellow as the lower mainland might seem, those languages are not very important to know to get a job. You think that years of job related experince would be less valueable than speaking another non offical language in getting a job? That's funny.

I am sure you think that.

$1:

I am sorry, dear, I do not use spell check. Did I mention English is my third language?

Not as of yet to me, but I'm sure given time you go out of your way to inform everyone about it.

Or more, you couldn't find ANY spelling error. Thanks

$1:

Just going from what I see. I take it you can show me?

I would say do your own job search, but I will be nice.

I will use the city of Surrey:

http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/6541.aspx

Title Electrical Inspector 1

Requirements The successful incumbent will have completed Grade 12 and an apprenticeship in the electrical trade. In addition, the candidate will have a minimum of three years experience as a Journeyman Electrician or electrical contractor or an equivalent combination of training and experience.

Nothing said about language.

~~~~

Telecommunications Operator 1

Requirements This position requires the ability to react quickly and tactfully with the public and to handle several matters at one time. We require individuals who can adapt quickly to changing priorities and can communicate with the public in a tactful and professional manner. The position requires working rotating shifts, including weekends and holidays.

Successful candidates will have completed Grade 12, supplemented by some related training and experience. An accurate typing speed of 45 words per minute (testing will be administered). This position requires the completion of the RCMP Reliability Security Clearance. Please note that this is an entry level auxiliary position with the opportunity to advance to regular full-time employment as a Telecommunications Operator 1.

~~~

Well that is just a city government lets look at the BC government:

https://search.employment.gov.bc.ca/cgi ... obid=12095
Community Prog Off (EAW) R15
• Effective verbal and written business English skills.

Nothing said about needing French.

https://search.employment.gov.bc.ca/cgi ... obid=12072
BUS LEAD - Project Manager, Missions and Events

This one didn't list any language requirements.

https://search.employment.gov.bc.ca/cgi ... obid=11964
CLK STN 09R9 - Administrative Clerk and Decision Processor

2. Must have excellent proficiency in both verbal and written communication in English

So 2/3 jobs wanted English, and 0 wanted French.

Have I made my point?

Selective search. You are fabulous.

$1:

Nope. I called you stupid because you tried to outsmart me by intentionally read what I wrote wrong.

I directly answered to what you wrote. If you ment something different you should have wrote something different. Calling someone stupid because they can't figure out what you ment in conflict with what you wrote is kinda silly.

MEANT ffs.
So you call my actions silly, but I can't call you stupid when you obviously act like you are. I think you are too smart for that.

$1:

Please, don't hesitate to point them out to me. If I recall correctly, you just mentioned my posts are "oh so properly spell checked". THAT contradiction is what I call stupid.

It takes me a while to fish out all of my own mistakes to say little of someone elses. Also I don't feel any need to point out other people's errors unless they are either realy funny or make the sentance or statement unintelligible.

You said in the part that I quoted (that you intentionally did not repeat here), that I made a lot of spelling errors myself. You are full of shit.

$1:

Because making an error in spelling or grammar, doesn't make what someone said wrong. I'm willing to communicate with people that make small errors in the structure of the langauge, so long as what they are saying is important or intresting.

Cool. With that logic, we are done. I haven't found anything you said very important or interesting.

You find correct spelling and grammar uninteresting and unimportant and are not willing to educate people, including yourself. Sorry, but there is no discussion possible here.
Call me arrogant, but if a letter, a job application or anything else that is not in fun, is full of spelling and grammar errors, they will end up mostly unread in the circular file.

Saipan @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:29 am

Why French? Even Spanish is more useful 'round the globe.

Guy_Fawkes @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:36 am

Are you serious??

Saipan @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:40 am

No, I'm Saipan. Who wants to know?

PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:38 am

Brenda Brenda:

Being a European, I don't think it is a bad idea to speak more than one language. I think that both English and French should be mandatory in high school in all provinces and territories, at the same level. I think that for a country that is bi-lingual, everyone should be able to get the education to at least be able to converse in both languages.

Just my $0.02

Being a European, it's more productive for you to know more than one language due to the close geographic proximity of those languages. Speaking French outside of Quebec won't really advance your career any unless you work for the Fed in some capacity.
Although.....you never do know. Years ago I met a gentleman who had suffered a major stroke. He was born in Quebec with French being his first language. He also learned English and eventually moved to Ontario to teach French. After his stroke, he lost his ability to communicate in French. He could still understand it when it was spoken to him, he just lost his ability to speak it.
If this poor guy hadn't learned a second language(in this case, English) he wouldn't have been able to verbally communicate.

Learning another language also has other less tangible benefits such as creating new neural pathways in the brain, which can help stave off or lessen the impact of Alzheimers.

PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:48 am

Brenda Brenda:

If the rest of the country would have taken the effort to learn French, there would not be a problem. See how that works?

Yep, and that attitude is why Canada is getting so fucked. The majority should have to kow-tow to the minority. Or to put it another way, 30 million Canadians should learn French to keep 5 million or so Quebecois happy.

I mean while we're at it, let's start forcing the acceptance and tolerance of various non-western religious groups while telling the majority Christians to go fuck themselves. Oh wait, we already do that too.

fifeboy @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:36 am

andyt andyt:

We were founded by the French and English. That's why French gets a special place. And Quebec makes a large part of Canadian identity. Without Quebec, we'd pretty soon look much like the US, I think. Nothing wrong with bilingualism, just in its ridiculous extremes, and how we're willing to allow Quebec to trample over free speech rights to enforce their specialness. (WTF is wrong with this spell checker when it doesn't like specialness?) I'm kinda proud of bilingualism. Makes us seem more cosmopolitan.

Saipan @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:53 pm

Quebec is a whole another country. They even got their own long gun registration, own political parties........

raydan @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:57 pm

I kinda like bilingualism... for some reason. :wink:

Brenda @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:05 pm

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Brenda Brenda:

If the rest of the country would have taken the effort to learn French, there would not be a problem. See how that works?

Yep, and that attitude is why Canada is getting so fucked.

Whether you like it or not, Canada has 2 official languages. What is wrong with speaking both of them on an at least conversational level?

$1:

The majority should have to kow-tow to the minority. Or to put it another way, 30 million Canadians should learn French to keep 5 million or so Quebecois happy.

Or just to make yourself happy. And the 5 million Quebecois should speak English at the same level as you speak French. High school grad level.

$1:

I mean while we're at it, let's start forcing the acceptance and tolerance of various non-western religious groups while telling the majority Christians to go fuck themselves. Oh wait, we already do that too.

No one is telling anyone to "go fuck themselves", EXCEPT for you, here.
We should accept other religions, as well as other cultures, and stop being so damned scared of "feeling less" than someone else.
I have no problem with ANY religion or language, sexual preference or skin colour. They are just not an issue in my life. Denouncing them does not make me a better person, knowledge does.

So yes, I speak French, and German, and English, and a little Dutch, too. And guess what. People I encounter don't care about my accent. I live in a country that has 2 official languages, and I think we should all speak both at least a little.
If I wanted to live in a solely English speaking country, I would have moved to Australia.

Brenda @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:10 pm

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Brenda Brenda:

Being a European, it's more productive for you to know more than one language due to the close geographic proximity of those languages.
Speaking French outside of Quebec won't really advance your career any unless you work for the Fed in some capacity.
Although.....you never do know. Years ago I met a gentleman who had suffered a major stroke. He was born in Quebec with French being his first language. He also learned English and eventually moved to Ontario to teach French. After his stroke, he lost his ability to communicate in French. He could still understand it when it was spoken to him, he just lost his ability to speak it.
If this poor guy hadn't learned a second language(in this case, English) he wouldn't have been able to verbally communicate.

Learning another language also has other less tangible benefits such as creating new neural pathways in the brain, which can help stave off or lessen the impact of Alzheimers.

I personally think you can't know enough languages.

I understand the "Why the hell should I learn French, they can learn English!"-thing, but I think that that is just an excuse. Why not learn French? Or Spanish? And if you really want to challenge yourself, Mandarin? Learning a new language could even be a hobby...

Gunnair @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:18 pm

Brenda Brenda:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Brenda Brenda:

Being a European, it's more productive for you to know more than one language due to the close geographic proximity of those languages.
Speaking French outside of Quebec won't really advance your career any unless you work for the Fed in some capacity.
Although.....you never do know. Years ago I met a gentleman who had suffered a major stroke. He was born in Quebec with French being his first language. He also learned English and eventually moved to Ontario to teach French. After his stroke, he lost his ability to communicate in French. He could still understand it when it was spoken to him, he just lost his ability to speak it.
If this poor guy hadn't learned a second language(in this case, English) he wouldn't have been able to verbally communicate.

Learning another language also has other less tangible benefits such as creating new neural pathways in the brain, which can help stave off or lessen the impact of Alzheimers.

Meh...I'm just hoping you learn English one day.

Brenda @ Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:19 pm

Gunnair Gunnair:

Brenda Brenda:

Meh...I'm just hoping you learn English one day.

Meh, don't count on it

PublicAnimalNo9 @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:51 am

Brenda Brenda:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Brenda Brenda:

Being a European, it's more productive for you to know more than one language due to the close geographic proximity of those languages.
Speaking French outside of Quebec won't really advance your career any unless you work for the Fed in some capacity.
Although.....you never do know. Years ago I met a gentleman who had suffered a major stroke. He was born in Quebec with French being his first language. He also learned English and eventually moved to Ontario to teach French. After his stroke, he lost his ability to communicate in French. He could still understand it when it was spoken to him, he just lost his ability to speak it.
If this poor guy hadn't learned a second language(in this case, English) he wouldn't have been able to verbally communicate.

Learning another language also has other less tangible benefits such as creating new neural pathways in the brain, which can help stave off or lessen the impact of Alzheimers.

It's not really an excuse. Official bilingualism has cost Canadians $1.68 trillion since it's inception. That sure seems to be a steep price for all the resentment it has created on both sides. And that doesn't include the cost to private enterprise. I don't know what packaging and label costs are in Europe but in Canada they are ridiculous.
When I still had my business, my label and packaging costs were double what they would have been without having to have 2 languages on EVERYTHING. Labels, packaging, instructions, and the stupid thing is I never even sold my products IN Quebec but I still had to have both languages on them, by law.
I certainly agree that knowing more than one language is very beneficial and the more the better, but forcing it on people isn't going to make them embrace it or take it seriously.
But if we continue to encourage children from a young age to learn another langauge, and as they get older, telling them that in todays global economy, the more languages you can speak the better your advantage will be, then maybe we can slowly get the next generations to want to be bi/multilingual.

In other news :lol:

when I was still in high school we only needed to take 1 year of French. I took it all 4 years. It was the biggest waste of my time. Three years were spent conjugating verbs and the 4th year the class was taught entirely in French.
Well, seeing as how all the fuck we did was conjugate verbs for three years, conversational French might as well have been Latin at that point, so about 2 months into the year I bade farewell to the class and teacher and that was the end of my French education.

SigOp @ Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:26 pm

I am in a unique situation. I grew up in Alberta wondering "why the hell would I ever need to learn french?". I never studied the language outside the mandatory grades 4-6. When I came to quebec city on my 18th birthday, I fell in love with the province (and it's women ) - I now live here. I did my basic military training in French, even though I could only say "bonjour", and "je ne comprende pas, corporal chef!".

I now understand that learning a second language is tough, but not impossible. It's actually fun, and rewarding. On both sides of the Anglo-Franco debate I find bigotry and ignorance. The truth is that most people simply can't be bothered to learn a second language, and justify their laziness - they'll come up with any excuse NOT to learn the other language.

In a nutshell - become bilingual. It's fun, and very rewarding.

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