A Question For Opponents Of Bilingualism
Gunnair @ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:32 pm
SigOp SigOp:
I am in a unique situation. I grew up in Alberta wondering "why the hell would I ever need to learn french?". I never studied the language outside the mandatory grades 4-6. When I came to quebec city on my 18th birthday, I fell in love with the province (and it's women 
) - I now live here. I did my basic military training in French, even though I could only say "bonjour", and "je ne comprende pas, corporal chef!".
I now understand that learning a second language is tough, but not impossible. It's actually fun, and rewarding. On both sides of the Anglo-Franco debate I find bigotry and ignorance. The truth is that most people simply can't be bothered to learn a second language, and justify their laziness - they'll come up with any excuse NOT to learn the other language.
In a nutshell - become bilingual. It's fun, and very rewarding.
) - I now live here. I did my basic military training in French, even though I could only say "bonjour", and "je ne comprende pas, corporal chef!".I now understand that learning a second language is tough, but not impossible. It's actually fun, and rewarding. On both sides of the Anglo-Franco debate I find bigotry and ignorance. The truth is that most people simply can't be bothered to learn a second language, and justify their laziness - they'll come up with any excuse NOT to learn the other language.
In a nutshell - become bilingual. It's fun, and very rewarding.
Yeah... or not. It's not just laziness. Frankly, unless you are in in a situation where you can use that often, then there is not much point.
I studied Gaelic for a couple of years and sang in a choir, but unless I'm using it on a daily basis, I'm going to lose it.
Same with French, really.
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:09 am
Gunnair Gunnair:
SigOp SigOp:
I am in a unique situation. I grew up in Alberta wondering "why the hell would I ever need to learn french?". I never studied the language outside the mandatory grades 4-6. When I came to quebec city on my 18th birthday, I fell in love with the province (and it's women ) - I now live here. I did my basic military training in French, even though I could only say "bonjour", and "je ne comprende pas, corporal chef!".
I now understand that learning a second language is tough, but not impossible. It's actually fun, and rewarding. On both sides of the Anglo-Franco debate I find bigotry and ignorance. The truth is that most people simply can't be bothered to learn a second language, and justify their laziness - they'll come up with any excuse NOT to learn the other language.
In a nutshell - become bilingual. It's fun, and very rewarding.
) - I now live here. I did my basic military training in French, even though I could only say "bonjour", and "je ne comprende pas, corporal chef!".I now understand that learning a second language is tough, but not impossible. It's actually fun, and rewarding. On both sides of the Anglo-Franco debate I find bigotry and ignorance. The truth is that most people simply can't be bothered to learn a second language, and justify their laziness - they'll come up with any excuse NOT to learn the other language.
In a nutshell - become bilingual. It's fun, and very rewarding.
Yeah... or not. It's not just laziness. Frankly, unless you are in in a situation where you can use that often, then there is not much point.
I studied Gaelic for a couple of years and sang in a choir, but unless I'm using it on a daily basis, I'm going to lose it.
Same with French, really.
Yep. My brother spent most of his school time up north so it was French immersion. Then he spent a number of years at CMR in St. Jean. By the time he got out, he didn't even have an accent.
Now, 40 years later and living out West, he's had very little chance to use French and so he's back down to the basics again. His conversational French is non-existent now and has been for at least 20 years.
martin14 @ Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:43 am
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
That sure seems to be a steep price for all the resentment it has created on both sides. And that doesn't include the cost to private enterprise. I don't know what packaging and label costs are in Europe but in Canada they are ridiculous.
When I still had my business, my label and packaging costs were double what they would have been without having to have 2 languages on EVERYTHING. Labels, packaging, instructions, and the stupid thing is I never even sold my products IN Quebec but I still had to have both languages on them, by law.
When I still had my business, my label and packaging costs were double what they would have been without having to have 2 languages on EVERYTHING. Labels, packaging, instructions, and the stupid thing is I never even sold my products IN Quebec but I still had to have both languages on them, by law.
They put labels in 4-5-6 languages, all in really small type.
Instruction manuals are as thick as novels, all usually written
in every language EXCEPT the one you use.
$1:
I certainly agree that knowing more than one language is very beneficial and the more the better, but forcing it on people isn't going to make them embrace it or take it seriously.
But if we continue to encourage children from a young age to learn another langauge, and as they get older, telling them that in todays global economy, the more languages you can speak the better your advantage will be, then maybe we can slowly get the next generations to want to be bi/multilingual.
But if we continue to encourage children from a young age to learn another langauge, and as they get older, telling them that in todays global economy, the more languages you can speak the better your advantage will be, then maybe we can slowly get the next generations to want to be bi/multilingual.
Certainly sounds good, but it hits the wall when you look around and see only
English in the ROC.
At least Quebeckers have a chance, being exposed to two.
Until the language police show up.
JaredMilne @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:06 pm
martin14 martin14:
Certainly sounds good, but it hits the wall when you look around and see only
English in the ROC.
At least Quebeckers have a chance, being exposed to two.
Until the language police show up.
The problem with that is that English only dominated in the ROC after most of the rest of the provinces specifically took steps to roll back, stamp out and repeal the rights of Francophones, often in direct violation of the original guarantees that Francophones were supposed to have. That's where Quebec separatism came from in the first place-the conviction that they could only maintain their French identity in Quebec. The whole basis for the language laws is that French and English are on an uneven keel...and they actually strengthened national unity by undermining some of the separatists' main arguments.
Now, it often seems like Quebec is the only province that is expected to make special provisions for its official language minority. New Brunswick is officially bilingual, but from what I've read that was extremely controversial. Obviously Anglophone Quebecers need to have consideration made for them, and I facepalm as much as the next guy when I see the lengths to which the province's language laws go, but why should they be the only linguistic minority to have those kinds of considerations made for them? For all the talk of "equal rights for all, special rights for none", it comes across to me as "special treatment for Quebec Anglophones and only Quebec Anglophones." Again, I agree that they deserve consideration, but so too do the French minorities in other parts of Canada.
I don't have a speck of French ancestry-I'm a mix of English and Scottish, with a dash of German thrown in for spice. But French immersion and learning Canada's official language is what made me try and understand things from a different point of view. Growing up in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the Reformers were saying that "the West wants in" and it seemed like Quebec was going to separate, I had a hard time just dismissing a lot of these disparate groups. I wanted to see just why so many Quebecers wanted to leave, and I wanted to know why so many of my fellow Westerners felt so alienated in the first place.
Bilingualism is what got me interested in that sort of thing. Since then, I've continued to practice my French, using it both in speaking to Francophones and in reading books written in French. The books I've read by francophone Quebecers have given me all sorts of valuable insights, and the summers I've spent in Quebec are memories that I'll always cherish.
martin14 @ Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:14 am
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
The problem with that is that English only dominated in the ROC after most of the rest of the provinces specifically took steps to roll back, stamp out and repeal the rights of Francophones,
It really is a question of numbers, you know.
Please indicate when Ontario had a Franco population around 25-30% of the
entire province.
Ancient history doesn't play much into the discussion these days,
there is enough in the modern era.
$1:
Now, it often seems like Quebec is the only province that is expected to make special provisions for its official language minority. New Brunswick is officially bilingual, but from what I've read that was extremely controversial.
NB has been officially bilingual since 1970. People still bitch about it,
but I honestly believe the vast majority of English speakers in Canada
are very lazy when it comes to linguistic plurality.
No surprise, 300 million neighbors who all speak English
(well, they used to anyway), all culture, sport, news, films
coming from the US, which is 95% of what Canadians watch anyway.
$1:
Again, I agree that they deserve consideration, but so too do the French minorities in other parts of Canada.
No, they don't. These communities have never represented 25-30% of the entire population, and therefore don't deserve official Provincial services.
Municipal, depends on the numbers.
Federal are guaranteed by the government of Canada.
$1:
I don't have a speck of French ancestry-I'm a mix of English and Scottish, with a dash of German thrown in for spice. But French immersion and learning Canada's official language is what made me try and understand things from a different point of view. Growing up in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the Reformers were saying that "the West wants in" and it seemed like Quebec was going to separate, I had a hard time just dismissing a lot of these disparate groups. I wanted to see just why so many Quebecers wanted to leave, and I wanted to know why so many of my fellow Westerners felt so alienated in the first place.
Bilingualism is what got me interested in that sort of thing. Since then, I've continued to practice my French, using it both in speaking to Francophones and in reading books written in French. The books I've read by francophone Quebecers have given me all sorts of valuable insights, and the summers I've spent in Quebec are memories that I'll always cherish.
Bilingualism is what got me interested in that sort of thing. Since then, I've continued to practice my French, using it both in speaking to Francophones and in reading books written in French. The books I've read by francophone Quebecers have given me all sorts of valuable insights, and the summers I've spent in Quebec are memories that I'll always cherish.
What can I say, good for you.
I went to school in NB in the 70's, studied French everyday, never thought
twice about it. But I now recognize I am (and you are) a serious minority
in the country. Most 'bilingual' people in Canada are French who have learned
English, not the other way around.
Quebec separatism is dependent on the economy at the time.
Support grows during bad times, wanes during the good.
But the separatists continue to espouse this very dangerous idea that separation
will include continued use of the Canadian dollar and passport; this won't stand,
the ROC will not agree, there is no precedent in international law,
and the Feds have never had the balls to stand up to say, 'ain't gonna happen'.
So the bullshit continues, and positions only continue to harden.
I can't speak much about the West, except to say it is again a question of numbers,
and Ottawa is very far away.
JaredMilne @ Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:31 pm
martin14 martin14:
It really is a question of numbers, you know.
Please indicate when Ontario had a Franco population around 25-30% of the
entire province.
Ancient history doesn't play much into the discussion these days,
there is enough in the modern era.
No, they don't. These communities have never represented 25-30% of the entire population, and therefore don't deserve official Provincial services.
Municipal, depends on the numbers.
Federal are guaranteed by the government of Canada.
What can I say, good for you.
I went to school in NB in the 70's, studied French everyday, never thought
twice about it. But I now recognize I am (and you are) a serious minority
in the country. Most 'bilingual' people in Canada are French who have learned
English, not the other way around.
Quebec separatism is dependent on the economy at the time.
Support grows during bad times, wanes during the good.
But the separatists continue to espouse this very dangerous idea that separation
will include continued use of the Canadian dollar and passport; this won't stand,
the ROC will not agree, there is no precedent in international law,
and the Feds have never had the balls to stand up to say, 'ain't gonna happen'.
So the bullshit continues, and positions only continue to harden.
I can't speak much about the West, except to say it is again a question of numbers,
and Ottawa is very far away.
I know I'm reviving this thread, but while going through my old bookmarks I found some interesting links that reminded me of this issue.
In Richmond, B.C., several people have complained about Chinese-only signs that don't have any English on them. Many people feel that new arrivals to the community ought to have English predominate, including several prominent members of the Chinese-Canadian community.
How, may I ask, are the feelings of these Richmond residents any different from those Franco-Quebecois who get irritated when new arrivals don't even bother trying to learn French? If these people expect Chinese immigrants to use English in their signage, how is that different from the intent of Quebec's language laws, particularly if they want a bylaw of some kind to require it? Sure, they might not go as far as some of the language militants in Quebec, but the same basic principle applies.
Who's to say that English might not risk being supplanted by new languages at some point? In such a case, why is it alright to demand that English be maintained and supported as the language that everyone has to learn, while French can just die out? How is that consistent? If demographics and "a question of numbers" cause French to vanish, what justification is there for not letting the same thing happen to English?
I know the official mantra is often "equal rights for all, special rights for none", but in this case, what is the justification for providing services, exceptions and exemptions for Anglophones in Quebec, but not any other minority population? In such a case, it risks coming across as special treatment for Quebec Anglophones and only Quebec Anglophones. The most generous estimates of the Anglo-Quebec population peg it at only about 13.5% of the provincial population, well below the 25-30% benchmark martin14 talked about for maintaining provincial services.
Don't get me wrong, I fully support exceptions and supports for the Anglo-Quebec minority. But if we're going to ignore this 25-30% benchmark in Quebec's case, why enforce it in the rest of the country?
Why should Quebec be the only province to have to make any kind of exemption?
And if the situation were reversed, and if Alberta or Saskatchewan were the only Anglo majority provinces on a Francophone continent, wouldn't we be the ones wanting to maintain our English identity and concerned about our rights?
In my view, we have three founding communities in this country-Anglophone, Francophone and Aboriginal. Each of them can change and grow, becoming more multiracial in the process as new immigrants join them and use English, French or a Native language to interact with their neighbours, but these languages remain the ones that we as a society use for communication. For me, that means French is the majority in Quebec (with recognition of Quebec's distinct status in the Constitution to reflect that), New Brunswick is bilingual and English is the majority in the other provinces. Educational and other services should be provided where populations warrant.
Finally, just as a sidenote I would love to see what some people have mentioned, namely that official language services be concentrated in those areas with actual substantial populations. This would save money and resources, and give non-bilinguals a better chance of getting hired in government offices outside those areas. The original Bilingual and Bicultural Commission actually recommended this...but Pierre Trudeau foolishly blocked it. I can only imagine how many headaches we could have spared if he hadn't...
PluggyRug @ Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:02 pm
Most of the instructions that come with the gadgets I buy are written in Chinglish.
It's a whole new language form.
Freakinoldguy @ Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:14 am
I find it appalling that we're discussing bilingualism on an open forum that's available to unsupervised minors.
Bilingualism is a personal preference and yes I know there are websites on the internet that show people participating in this type of behaviour but, does that mean we should just blithely bring it out of the closet where, as we know, all things of this nature belong just to parade it around like some Saturday night party pig with no moral compass.
No.
PET got it right when he said "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".
JaredMilne @ Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:01 pm
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
I find it appalling that we're discussing bilingualism on an open forum that's available to unsupervised minors.
Bilingualism is a personal preference and yes I know there are websites on the internet that show people participating in this type of behaviour but, does that mean we should just blithely bring it out of the closet where, as we know, all things of this nature belong just to parade it around like some Saturday night party pig with no moral compass.
No.
PET got it right when he said "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".
Bilingualism is a personal preference and yes I know there are websites on the internet that show people participating in this type of behaviour but, does that mean we should just blithely bring it out of the closet where, as we know, all things of this nature belong just to parade it around like some Saturday night party pig with no moral compass.
No.
PET got it right when he said "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".
Easy for you to say, considering that you're not a closet bilingual.
Do you know what it's like in this country to actually be bilingual and have to keep in the closet about it all the time? To know that people consider us weird and unnatural? To know that we're considered gross and unnatural? How would you like it if it happened to you?
There are so many of us out there afraid to be proud of who we are. Why should we be afraid or ashamed to be bilingual?
westmanguy @ Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:08 pm
Its a tricky subject.
I support bilingualism to a degree. Reasonable accommodation should be made to offer government services in either official language across the country.
As far as just common sense individual approach, I'll be blunt. French is useless to me as Western Canadian and I reckon to bargain most Western Canadians would agree.
In the Lower Mainland of BC I am MUCH more wiser to learn Mandarin, Cantonese or Punjabi. If I pursue a second language in my twenties I'm almost certain it'll either be Mandarin or Spanish (Mandarin if I stay in Vancouver; Spanish if I move to the U.S.).
The French population is absolutely minuscule in this part of the country. I've only heard French spoken on transit once since coming to Vancouver. Try going a day without hearing Mandarin here. Its almost impossible. Intellectual evaluations would have one learn the language of the demographics dominant in the region...
Freakinoldguy @ Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:30 am
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
I find it appalling that we're discussing bilingualism on an open forum that's available to unsupervised minors.
Bilingualism is a personal preference and yes I know there are websites on the internet that show people participating in this type of behaviour but, does that mean we should just blithely bring it out of the closet where, as we know, all things of this nature belong just to parade it around like some Saturday night party pig with no moral compass.
No.
PET got it right when he said "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".
Bilingualism is a personal preference and yes I know there are websites on the internet that show people participating in this type of behaviour but, does that mean we should just blithely bring it out of the closet where, as we know, all things of this nature belong just to parade it around like some Saturday night party pig with no moral compass.
No.
PET got it right when he said "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".
Easy for you to say, considering that you're not a closet bilingual.
Do you know what it's like in this country to actually be bilingual and have to keep in the closet about it all the time? To know that people consider us weird and unnatural? To know that we're considered gross and unnatural? How would you like it if it happened to you?
There are so many of us out there afraid to be proud of who we are. Why should we be afraid or ashamed to be bilingual?
JaredMilne @ Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:08 pm
westmanguy westmanguy:
In the Lower Mainland of BC I am MUCH more wiser to learn Mandarin, Cantonese or Punjabi. If I pursue a second language in my twenties I'm almost certain it'll either be Mandarin or Spanish (Mandarin if I stay in Vancouver; Spanish if I move to the U.S.).
The French population is absolutely minuscule in this part of the country. I've only heard French spoken on transit once since coming to Vancouver. Try going a day without hearing Mandarin here. Its almost impossible. Intellectual evaluations would have one learn the language of the demographics dominant in the region...
Here's the thing about those language demographics, though...
$1:
But if Canada were to introduce official languages based on immigrant patterns, the situation would be in flux with every passing generation, said Graham Fraser, Canada’s commissioner for official languages. “If you look at the immigration patterns of this country, by and large immigrant languages do not survive the third generation,” he said.
In 1951, for example, 450,000 Canadians spoke Ukrainian at home, Mr. Fraser said, and bureaucrats toyed with the idea of recognizing Ukrainian as an official language in Western Canada. The problem was that in 1981, that 450,000 had become 45,000, he said.
“The third-generation immigrant tends to use English and French as their dominant language, and yet you’re not seeing that diminution on the part of the French-speaking community in Canada,” Mr. Fraser said. “There are more French speakers in Canada now than there ever have been.”
Here in Alberta, a couple of my white coworkers were born and raised in Britain, and they still have their British accents. I also have some coworkers of Indian descent who were raised here in Canada and went to Canadian schools, and their accents are pretty much indistinguishable from mine.
I'm curious-just who do the people who speak languages other than our official ones actually speak them to? Do they do it with other regular citizens, or just people in their own ethnocultural communities? I mean, if I'm a white guy going into a store run by someone of Chinese ancestry, does he expect his customers to speak Mandarin to him? Or if they work in tech support, do they expect the customer calling in to speak their ancestral language?
It seems to me that the vast majority of the time, the language people who don't know each other default to tends to be either English or French, depending on where you are in Canada.
I don't have any problem with schools offering whatever other language classes they like, with families teaching ancestral languages to their kids, or whatever. However, I don't think we should extend the languages we officially recognize in our courts, our legislatures, our schools, and what have you beyond English and French. These are the languages that our country was built on. Bilingualism, for me, is about learning to communicate with all my fellow Canadians, regardless of where in the country they live.
If we're going to extend federal recognition to Punjabi, as one person in the article I cite suggests, why don't we also do it for Italian, or Arabic, or Russian? How do we pick and choose which languages to support? Do we expect every part of the country to provide service in every language? People complain about extending French services in B.C., but how much rationale is there for extending Chinese services to someplace like New Brunswick? If you think bilingualism is expensive, just imagine how much worse it would be if we extended it to multiple languages...
That's why I think the system we have now works best. Each province has one (or two, in New Brunswick's case) majority languages, generally allows both official languages in its legislature and provides services to its official language minority. As for extending services and support for other languages, that can and should be done on an as-needed basis, depending on demand and population. However, they don't and shouldn't have the same status as English and French, just as there's no reason why French would have official status in some place like Peru.