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Try again. A GST cut will only save you on what you spend. An income tax cut saves you on what you make.

Unless you are spending more then you make then you won't be saving more and if you are spending more then you make then where you get your tax cut is the least of your worries because interest payments will make it all moot anyway.

   

well try telling this to the average shoper in one of canada's thousnads of retail stores that a gst cut won't save them money , i'm sure they will not believe you and dion .

   

Do the math.

a 1% GST cut on money you spend compared to a 1% cut on money you earn.

Figure that you don't pay GST on rent or food from a grocery store whereas an income tax comes off the total gross.

Its not partisan. Its simple math.

Figure a person who makes $40000 may spend $10000 on GST applicable items.

What is larger 1% of $40000 or 1% of $10000?

Unless they spend all $40000 on GST applicable items then they cannot save more.

   

I'll admit I'm torn on the icebreakers. They are a visual commitment that Canadians is dedicated to protecting the arctic, but the reality is that the navy dosen't want them. The navy wants reinforced hulls so they can go through 1m ice but won't be crippled when they use them for the rest of the season.

You're math dosen't reflect the person who does not make enough money to pay pay taxes. Poor people are usually such because they are not good money managers and may not even file taxes and recieve their GST rebates, etc. To those people, the taxes are irrelivent an dthe GST will make a larger difference.

   

Actually it does because it lowers the amount they pay on a paycheck to paycheck basis giving them more money each paycheck. If they make that little then the amount they will save on a GST rebate won't amount to much and since the GST rebate goes down they end up breaking even.

Now your thoughts on the Icebreakers....... The Navy doesn't want them? Buying warships with reinforced hulls or simply reinforcing existing hulls (if possible) amounts to the same thing.

We need a large outlay of capital in order to get something, anything capable of year-round arctic patrolling.

He promised it. Its a broken promise not unlike the nucs Mulroney promised.

Your treatment of this is exceedingly more generous then Chretien cancelling the helos despite promising it upfront and running on it and getting elected.

The public spoke and he kept his promise.

From where I sit you are excusing Harpers broken promise for something we need and can afford yet condeming Chretiens keeping his promise over something we also needed but could ill-afford.

Understand? Harper made a shitload of military promises and has all the money he needs to fulfill them but he isn't. He isn't spending the whole wad (so to speak) on the military because he knows it will be politically bad for him.

He spending money yes but that because he has it.

He is still shelving purchases though.

Now perhaps we can dispense with the partisanship and answer questions more honestly.

   

not cutting the GST is the only thing I agree with the Liberals on. Consumption taxs such as GST are the most fair and the most focused.

Plus GST taxes wokring class people higher durring a time of prosperity when buisiness owners are hurt by rising labors costs, income tax could never do that.

   

This is also to assume that poor people have steady jobs. Do part time jobs deduct taxes? If the best you get is the occasional week as a temp or as casual labour, you don't get any deductions. Chances are likely that they won't be filing their incomtax forms and topping up their RRSP`s this year.

Show me where the forces said anything but YES PLEASE to the helicopter choice. They said that was the Caddy of helio`s but they didn`t immediately buy the Fords then, did they. If it was just a matter of getting something cheaper, the military would still have welcomed it.

   

Alot of poor people do have steady jobs ...... they just pay min wage.

Vote NDP if you want to change that. They do pay tax, they just get alot back come tax time. The only people who don't get taxed up front are students who may benefit more from a GST cut but since they can't afford to buy anything but books and beer it amounts to very little.

Now for the helos, yes most didn't like it. They would have liked it alot less had we bought the helos only to force greater cuts on them to pay for it.

The fact was that we were in massive debt whether you want to admit it or not.

The economics of Canada back then were stark and bleak. We were being labelled a hononary third world country.

I posted the Macleans article almost 2 years ago showing how bad we were with a huge portion of tax revenues going directly to interest.

If this were the reform party that had done it you guys would be crowing non-stop but since its the Libs you are trying to do everything to dismiss it.

Who is being dishonest?

Remember the white paper?

Yes the military got budget cuts. So did everybody else?

Answer this:

How the hell were they supposed to increase military spending (as well as other depts) at the same time as lower taxes and still cut the deficit?

How?

   

But if Cherten rejected the caddys, why didn't he buy the Fords then.
What he did was a classic Canadian move, he dragged it out ntill it was martins problem...
Just like the Tudor jets for the Snowbirds.

As for taxes, I think the cut off is somewhere around $10k
That's something like 3 months of part time, 5 hours a day, @ $7.50/hour. That might be difficult for an Eastern fisher but pretty easy for the most pathetic BC stoner. Hell, most Austrailian's do more than that every years at Whistler.

   

The helo rejection was both political and fiscal. A country in massive debt buying a big ticket purchase was bound to cause ripples.

Given that the military posters here post about never supporting ther Liberals regardless it isn't hard to understand where the Libs through their pitch.

At the time it was unaffordable.

You could make the argument that harper is doign less in comparison because he has loads of cash compared to the 93 libs who had loads of debt is at least a salient point.

He didn't "leave it to Martin" as you put it. Chretien was responsible for purchases such as the subs and LAV-IIIs. Its just that by the time Martin took over the money was there for more military purchases though I will agree that MArtin was the far better PM for military purchases.

Now for taxes and such ..... We can both shoot blindly in the dark but a little research can quell this entirely.

Will a GST rebate help poor people more then a income tax break? research is needed. Obviously the NDP plan is best becasue they favour few tax cuts and increased wages.

If we continue this argument we will both end up voting them.

In Brampton they just announced another 1000 jobs lost in the auto industry. Corp tax reductions can help alleviate this. Income tax reductions help most Canadians.

What good does a GST rebate do for a "poor person" if they lose their job?

At least you can agree that the Liberals aren't a "Tax and spend" party like some of you compatriots have posted,

fair is fair right?

   

I won't comment on the tax & spend because, as that may have been correct in the Trudeau eara, it's not in the Dion days.

but to belabor the helios. We know it wasn't a caddy vs Ford issue. That was the political justification at the time. If it was just a cash crunch, less would have been better than none and, because the forces never get what they want, they would have been ablt to prioritize and make due. That would have still saved probably a dozen lives.

I guess one of the kernals of our disagrements is that I don't believe we were that close to the finacial wall. We've been lauded time and time again, during the martin G9 meetings as a leader in debt reform but we both accept there is cash bleeding out of the system from all over. Not scandals but taxes, run-away ministries and misguided funding.

   

Trudeau & Mulroney were tax and spend.

Chretien and Martin were not. They were the exact opposite.



yes it was a political choice as well as a prudent fiscal one.

If you want to blame them for the same deaths that MCB did the tack on the commorant deaths to Harper.

Of course we could get into the whole war thing. Imagine the NDP "blaming soldier deaths" on harper. I doubt you would like that.

In the end the Liberals made the hardest choices that any gov't had to make.

It isn't easy what they did. Bitch at them for adscam all you want but villify them for their budget choices and you are not only being unfair but will justify us not giving harper any credit for what he does.

Answer this. If it were the CPC (or reform/alliance/PC) party who turned around the economics like the Libs did would you be saying what I am? Would I be saying what you are?

I think you would but I wouldn't.



Yes but what are you basing your opinion on? I have no idea what age you are but I think you are old enough to remember what the prevailing theme was in the early 90's. Were all those financial experts wrong? Biased? Hyperion is a moron who was likely knawing on fudsicles during that era.

We were called an honourary thrid world country by non-partisan foreign people.

We were almost broke.

Why you dispute this is beyond me.

If you do then why post about harpers debt reduction? Hell you should be posting that he is wasting money that could be better spent elsewhere.

What exactly is your reasoning? Honestly?

   

The problem with Liberals is they feel my money could be better spent elsewhere. Those smug arrogant bastards are always trying to tell me that the most recent tax cut is just "beer money" or "a pizza a month".

   

i know they try and claim that every tax cut will do nothing to help anyone out , its all rather pathetic of them and shows they couldn't care what the average person pays in tax.

   

Honestly, I'm getting really fucking annoyed.

How many of these threads are you going to start, and then ignore the content? What are you accomplishing?

I'll assume Dion is against the GST cut because it's stupid to do when cutting income taxes has the same savings opportunity and also increases efficiency. Anyone with half a brain can see this, which probably explains your 50 threads.

Also, before you start another thread: Yes, the Liberals abstained from voting. It's been done before, even by your Conservatives.

Whether or not Dion would have cut taxes as much as the Tory's did in the mini-budget, who knows. Rescinding the GST cut would also stupid, politically, unless you can educate the public that what you're doing is "good". Judging by your ability to comprehend the very same subject matter, that ain't easy.

   

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