Unions
Yogi @ Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:33 pm
hwacker hwacker:
Yogi Yogi:
Where is it written that someone going into business is obligated to 'spread the wealth'? Walmart employs a lot of people who otherwise may not be employable. No one is forced to work anywhere. As in my line of work, some contractors pay less than others for the exact same work. No one forces me to take the work. I'm free to go somewhere else! If I so choose to 'spread the wealth then that is 'my choice'. People rarely get into business so that they can become a 'social safety net'. I know I didn't. I'm a capatalist and damn proud of it. I put in the 'start-up funds' took the risk, worked longer and harder than anyone else. I reap the lions share of the benefits. Along the way I employed and trained many people. I was very clear about what I expected them to do. I was very clear about how much they would be paid. Take it or leave it!
No one is forced to patronize any business. If people quit buying what Walmart is selling, they'll change. If no one will work for the wages they offer, they'll change. No one has the right to go ask another to give them a job and then turn around and extort them!
C'MON stop making sense, Jeeze some people.
Sorry 'bout that hwacker. I guess I had a bit of a 'brain fart'. I'll try not to let it happen again!
romanP @ Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:28 pm
Yogi Yogi:
romanP romanP:
how should one pay for higher education if one is struggling just to feed and shelter oneself anyway?
Exactly the same way I and many others did it. We went to college full time AND took a job FULL TIME!
That sounds like a bit of an impossibility. You need time to study and do homework, eat and sleep somewhere in there. Most people don't do very well in school if they don't do those things. I found it extremely difficult to take on one course plus a full time job, nevermind a full courseload.
$1:
As well, I wasn't too proud to do whatever odd-jobs I could find. Such as doing 'move-out clean up, yard work, shovelling snow, anything that I could make a few bucks at.[/i][/color] On a 'good day' it was a real bitch, but I knew that in the long run it would be me benefiting. And it certainly instilled in me a great sense of pride and accomplishment. I did this with a wife and two kids to support!
How many years ago was this?
When I entered college for the first time in 1999, it cost $437 per semester. That's about what I pay in rent right now, and that's half of the total rent cost. In this city, you're lucky if you can find a decent one-bedroom apartment for under $700/mo. Factor in food and utilities and you run up to at least $1000/mo just to live and meet basic modern needs. When I last took on a full courseload at Algonquin College in 2007, tuition was $1200 per semester. That's just under what I make in a month right now, working at $10/hr. A retail job will not net you $10/hr, in most cases, meaning most people working retail jobs are already straining to make ends meet, nevermind saving any money for post-secondary education. A university education will cost at least $5000 per semester. There is no way that anyone working a retail job can possibly afford this.
$1:
$1:
WalMart is one of the richest companies in the world, and makes enough money every year to buy at least a couple of small countries, but for some reason still gives their employees the lowest pay they legally can and treats them like shit. In America, WalMart employees often do not even get benefits or make enough to pay into third-party medical insurance, and so they have to rely on public health care which, in the so-called Land of the Free, is a big no-no. It's actually not even that much of a stretch to put some of blame for this economic downturn on WalMart, because they take more out of the system than they give. They take peoples' skilled jobs and turn them into crap. They take peoples' livelihoods and throw them down the garbage disposal. They use Chinese slave labour to drive down prices and sell us all what is essentially trash before it's even out of the store. If WalMart were unionised tomorrow, a great deal of this would be fixed, and might actually even make the company a respectable, productive member of the economy. Instead, they waste resources and reap all of the profits for themselves.
Where is it written that someone going into business is obligated to 'spread the wealth'?
Economies generally don't go anywhere if people can't afford to spend money on anything but the most basic of needs. In a growth economy, people spending money is very important, and if they don't have any to spare, then that doesn't happen.
Productivity requires more than just manufacturing a product. If the product doesn't move out the door because no one can afford it, then it's a liability, not an investment.
If businesses just hold onto most of the money they make, that money is not really doing anything for anyone and the rich people holding it are essentially just paying themselves for being rich. This does not lead to a productive society and creates an enormous gap in wealth.
$1:
Walmart employs a lot of people who otherwise may not be employable.
Just having a job doesn't do any good if it doesn't pay enough so you can afford your own living expenses, even if you're the most frugal person in the world. If you're spending more than 50% of your paycheque on rent alone, you're likely not going to be able to afford to do anything else but what you're already doing.
$1:
No one is forced to work anywhere.
Quite the opposite - if one is to have a decent quality of life, everyone is forced to work somewhere or somehow.
$1:
As in my line of work, some contractors pay less than others for the exact same work. No one forces me to take the work.
I did essentially the same thing throughout July and August of this past year, and came scarily close to not being able to even pay rent because the temp agency I was working for would have no work for entire weeks if the weather was bad. I'm just lucky enough to have rich grandparents that will help me out if I'm in a pinch, but a lot of people aren't that fortunate.
$1:
I'm free to go somewhere else!
And make the same wages.
$1:
If I so choose to 'spread the wealth then that is 'my choice'. People rarely get into business so that they can become a 'social safety net'. I know I didn't. I'm a capatalist and damn proud of it.
You don't seem to understand one of the most basic principals of capitalism, unfortunately. How can businesses make capital, if no one else has enough of their own capital to spend? Capitalism is just as much about redistribution of wealth as socialism, it just happens in a different manner. If everyone just hoarded their money, that money would have no value and couldn't be spent anywhere. Money has a labour value attached to it, and if employers do not pay their employees very much, it shows that they do not value that labour very much. If a company like WalMart really values its riches, it should pay its employees a better wage, because if they don't then all of that wealth is for nothing and only serves to drag down the rest of us, no matter how hard we work. In the American economy, this is exactly what has happened. Those who are now fortunate enough to be able to make enough money (524,000 jobs were lost in Q3 of 2008, the highest loss since 1975. Unemployment is at 7.2%, higher than it it has ever been in the past decade. Bureau of Labor Statistics) to cover their expenses are also having to pay to cover millions of other people's expenses because companies like WalMart don't pay their employees benefits or enough money to cover third-party insurance.
$1:
I put in the 'start-up funds' took the risk, worked longer and harder than anyone else. I reap the lions share of the benefits. Along the way I employed and trained many people. I was very clear about what I expected them to do. I was very clear about how much they would be paid. Take it or leave it!
A lot of people have no choice but to take it, even if it is shit pay. In the end, everyone has to pay to eat.
$1:
No one is forced to patronize any business. If people quit buying what Walmart is selling, they'll change.
In terms of WalMart, a lot of people are forced to patronise that business because it is the only business. WalMart is known for its practise of wiping out the small businesses in small towns and replacing those jobs with their crappy underpaid retail jobs. In fact, quite a lot of small American towns have held protests against WalMart coming to their town because it would raise property taxes and wipe out small business, putting everyone under the poverty line. This is essentially creating a system of indentured servitude and economic fascism.
$1:
If no one will work for the wages they offer, they'll change. No one has the right to go ask another to give them a job and then turn around and extort them!
If there is no other job to even apply for because they are the only employer in town, everyone is forced to work for lower wages. Job creation is not possible if there is no economic possibility of diverse investments.
Yogi @ Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:36 pm
romanP romanP:
Yogi Yogi:
romanP romanP:
how should one pay for higher education if one is struggling just to feed and shelter oneself anyway?
Exactly the same way I and many others did it. We went to college full time AND took a job FULL TIME!
That sounds like a bit of an impossibility. You need time to study and do homework, eat and sleep somewhere in there. Most people don't do very well in school if they don't do those things. I found it extremely difficult to take on one course plus a full time job, nevermind a full courseload.
$1:
As well, I wasn't too proud to do whatever odd-jobs I could find. Such as doing 'move-out clean up, yard work, shovelling snow, anything that I could make a few bucks at.[/i][/color] On a 'good day' it was a real bitch, but I knew that in the long run it would be me benefiting. And it certainly instilled in me a great sense of pride and accomplishment. I did this with a wife and two kids to support!
How many years ago was this?
When I entered college for the first time in 1999, it cost $437 per semester. That's about what I pay in rent right now, and that's half of the total rent cost. In this city, you're lucky if you can find a decent one-bedroom apartment for under $700/mo. Factor in food and utilities and you run up to at least $1000/mo just to live and meet basic modern needs. When I last took on a full courseload at Algonquin College in 2007, tuition was $1200 per semester. That's just under what I make in a month right now, working at $10/hr. A retail job will not net you $10/hr, in most cases, meaning most people working retail jobs are already straining to make ends meet, nevermind saving any money for post-secondary education. A university education will cost at least $5000 per semester. There is no way that anyone working a retail job can possibly afford this.
$1:
$1:
WalMart is one of the richest companies in the world, and makes enough money every year to buy at least a couple of small countries, but for some reason still gives their employees the lowest pay they legally can and treats them like shit. In America, WalMart employees often do not even get benefits or make enough to pay into third-party medical insurance, and so they have to rely on public health care which, in the so-called Land of the Free, is a big no-no. It's actually not even that much of a stretch to put some of blame for this economic downturn on WalMart, because they take more out of the system than they give. They take peoples' skilled jobs and turn them into crap. They take peoples' livelihoods and throw them down the garbage disposal. They use Chinese slave labour to drive down prices and sell us all what is essentially trash before it's even out of the store. If WalMart were unionised tomorrow, a great deal of this would be fixed, and might actually even make the company a respectable, productive member of the economy. Instead, they waste resources and reap all of the profits for themselves.
Where is it written that someone going into business is obligated to 'spread the wealth'?
Economies generally don't go anywhere if people can't afford to spend money on anything but the most basic of needs. In a growth economy, people spending money is very important, and if they don't have any to spare, then that doesn't happen.
Productivity requires more than just manufacturing a product. If the product doesn't move out the door because no one can afford it, then it's a liability, not an investment.
If businesses just hold onto most of the money they make, that money is not really doing anything for anyone and the rich people holding it are essentially just paying themselves for being rich. This does not lead to a productive society and creates an enormous gap in wealth.
$1:
Walmart employs a lot of people who otherwise may not be employable.
Just having a job doesn't do any good if it doesn't pay enough so you can afford your own living expenses, even if you're the most frugal person in the world. If you're spending more than 50% of your paycheque on rent alone, you're likely not going to be able to afford to do anything else but what you're already doing.
$1:
No one is forced to work anywhere.
Quite the opposite - if one is to have a decent quality of life, everyone is forced to work somewhere or somehow.
$1:
As in my line of work, some contractors pay less than others for the exact same work. No one forces me to take the work.
I did essentially the same thing throughout July and August of this past year, and came scarily close to not being able to even pay rent because the temp agency I was working for would have no work for entire weeks if the weather was bad. I'm just lucky enough to have rich grandparents that will help me out if I'm in a pinch, but a lot of people aren't that fortunate.
$1:
I'm free to go somewhere else!
And make the same wages.
$1:
If I so choose to 'spread the wealth then that is 'my choice'. People rarely get into business so that they can become a 'social safety net'. I know I didn't. I'm a capatalist and damn proud of it.
You don't seem to understand one of the most basic principals of capitalism, unfortunately. How can businesses make capital, if no one else has enough of their own capital to spend? Capitalism is just as much about redistribution of wealth as socialism, it just happens in a different manner. If everyone just hoarded their money, that money would have no value and couldn't be spent anywhere. Money has a labour value attached to it, and if employers do not pay their employees very much, it shows that they do not value that labour very much. If a company like WalMart really values its riches, it should pay its employees a better wage, because if they don't then all of that wealth is for nothing and only serves to drag down the rest of us, no matter how hard we work. In the American economy, this is exactly what has happened. Those who are now fortunate enough to be able to make enough money (524,000 jobs were lost in Q3 of 2008, the highest loss since 1975. Unemployment is at 7.2%, higher than it it has ever been in the past decade. Bureau of Labor Statistics) to cover their expenses are also having to pay to cover millions of other people's expenses because companies like WalMart don't pay their employees benefits or enough money to cover third-party insurance.
$1:
I put in the 'start-up funds' took the risk, worked longer and harder than anyone else. I reap the lions share of the benefits. Along the way I employed and trained many people. I was very clear about what I expected them to do. I was very clear about how much they would be paid. Take it or leave it!
A lot of people have no choice but to take it, even if it is shit pay. In the end, everyone has to pay to eat.
$1:
No one is forced to patronize any business. If people quit buying what Walmart is selling, they'll change.
In terms of WalMart, a lot of people are forced to patronise that business because it is the only business. WalMart is known for its practise of wiping out the small businesses in small towns and replacing those jobs with their crappy underpaid retail jobs. In fact, quite a lot of small American towns have held protests against WalMart coming to their town because it would raise property taxes and wipe out small business, putting everyone under the poverty line. This is essentially creating a system of indentured servitude and economic fascism.
$1:
If no one will work for the wages they offer, they'll change. No one has the right to go ask another to give them a job and then turn around and extort them!
If there is no other job to even apply for because they are the only employer in town, everyone is forced to work for lower wages. Job creation is not possible if there is no economic possibility of diverse investments.
You don't suppose that I really care if you believe that is how 'we did for ourselves in those days or not do you? If 'you' wanted something 'you' worked for it. 'Success was comensurate to the amount of effort applied. I had a wife and two small children to support. Not much choice in the matter!My lowest mark was 78%, the rest averaged in 'low 90's'
The cost of living/wages was relative. Don't even try to use that as an excuse. 'Grab the bull by the balls and show him who really is in charge' Hang on tight lest you get trampled! If you do this, you are in for one hell of a ride, but when the dust settles you'll be 'on top and in control' of your own future'! As I said earlier "On a good day, Life was a bitch"!
mtbr @ Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:49 pm
it's funny how Walmart pays more than most other established retailers in Calgary such as Canadian Tire. Never seemed to be as understaffed either.
Bruce_the_vii @ Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:05 pm
One thing I notice is that people with training, skills and a job tend to think that they are set for life, that there'll always be a shortage of their skill and a good wage as a result.
herbie @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:17 am
If any of you whiners had actually done your part instead of just repeating the usual moronic cliches, you opinions might be of value.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
RUEZ @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:39 am
herbie herbie:
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people.
Ok self righteous smart guy. Why do most unionized workers at superstore only get part time hours with no benefits?
ziggy @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:26 am
herbie herbie:
If any of you whiners had actually done your part instead of just repeating the usual moronic cliches, you opinions might be of value.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
what a load of union propaganda bullshit!
Your reading that from one of their pamphlets arent you?
Maybe you should have mentioned the guys killed at the giant mine near yellowknife,they can thank the union for those deaths,or the single mom here who crossed a picket line here after 9 months of picketing who had her house burnt down while she worked.
Or mention Marine pipeline and how the OE effectively killed their employer?
The cons and libs have nothing to do with it allthough I was part of the guys who voted against my union to finance the NDP through my dues.
That was a first,the union was flabbergasted that they couldnt use our dollars to finance an NDP candidate,next up was us having to mandatorily pay into the union pension plan,some of the guys didnt and still are blackballed in every monthly issue of their newsletter.
When the UMWA and steelworkers held the Elk valleys 5000 workers hostage to their greedy demands and the mines were shutting down after 9 months of strikes some got smart and formed a workers association,kind of a workers union run by the local guys working there.They competed with the union mine a 1/4 mile away,got superior benefits,wages and lots of overtime.They still run steady even when their 5 sister unionized mines are shut down.
That,s what happens when a strike lasts allmost a year and folks are so desperate for the union way they shoot at the fuel trains coming in or beat the shit out of people crossing a picket line to work when there is none.
When it comes to militant unions your down east unions are pussy's compared to the what the umwa was like in Alberta and BC untill they finally got turfed and tamed.
So dont thank the unions for all those benefits but the people who fought for them and workers rights in the unions back then,when a union was actually the voice of the people and not the voice of someone on the board whos sole intention is to protect the union pension plan and wages for the union heads.
Unions have a whole different mandate now and it's protect themselves first,workers second.
Yogi @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:29 am
herbie herbie:
If any of you whiners had actually done your part instead of just repeating the usual moronic cliches, you opinions might be of value.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
Unions were formed based upon noble principles. Then it was a necessity instigated by the actions of unscroupulous employers. That was a long time ago and far away! They are now just an aberration. The original priciples long forgotten. Today people are much more aware and able to stand up for themselves. Perhaps this can be attributed to those very same unions of long ago.
As with the b&w tv, L.P.'s and 8-track tapes, unions have outlived their usefulness to all except those who want someone else to 'do it' for them.
So. I gather from some of your posts in other threads that you own your own business Herb. That being the case, maybe your shop does not employ enough people on a regular basis for you to qualify for a charter. ( This is not a slight, rather an observation on my part. Kudos to anyone who has put in the hard work and risk to start and run a business.) Nonetheless, you pay your employees based on union scale and provide them with all the benefits that they would be entitled to if your shop was unionized, right? Right Herb???
ziggy @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:31 am
Unions have become the exact same people they were fighting against 30 years ago.
ziggy @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:59 am
If I work on a union site they usually ask for dues from me too,most places it's written into the contract,thats allmost like extortion considering I get none of their benefits.To work on a union site I have to contribute to the union.
What's wrong with that picture?
romanP @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:16 am
Yogi Yogi:
As with the b&w tv, L.P.'s and 8-track tapes, unions have outlived their usefulness to all except those who want someone else to 'do it' for them.
LPs have not outlived their usefulness! I own quite a lot of vinyl that was pressed in the last ten years, and lots of people are still buying it. Cassette tapes however.. those are dead. Dead like J. Edgar Hoover.
Chumley @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:30 am
I don't think they have outlived their usefulness, just that they are not needed at the moment, and should not be thrown out so much as stored away. Give unions their due thanks for what they have done in the past, but it seems they have become more of a hinderance now. All the things the unions fought for have become a reality now in our laws. All the things the unions fight for now are over and above what people need and should be earned on individual merit I think.
Brenda @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:51 am
Union leaders most often become leaders of political parties... At least, where I come from... And then PM... 
mtbr @ Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 am
herbie herbie:
If any of you whiners had actually done your part instead of just repeating the usual moronic cliches, you opinions might be of value.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
Next time you have a weekend off, thank unions.
Next time you get paid overtime, thank unions.
Next time you get the overtime instead of the boss's nephew, thank unions.
Next time you can actually pay the rent from your salary, and you're a woman, thank unions.
If you ever file a complaint over harassment, thank unions.
Next time you're upset because you're only part-time and you don't get benefits, blame the right people. The dicks posting here who through supporting the Conservatives and Liberals made laws so your BOSS could deny those benefits. And the only way you'll get them is to participate in the union and FIGHT for them instead of whining.
Union workers get less than non-union workers in Alberta why? because nobody wants to put up with their BS.