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I'm fully aware of the concept, I just thought that that was Harper's schtick, was that he didn't play those kind of games, and gave it to you straight.

You know, the "You may not like what I say or do, but you can at least count on the fact that I'm not just saying it for show." sort of thing. I could have sworn he campaigned on that...

You know you have a sad excuse for a reformist party when you start using the faults of the previous "corrupt" party that has lost "the moral authority to govern" as the basis for why you're pulling the same stunts...

   

I'm not sure I understand you Av.

I support SSM but I understand the reasons the vote is being called. Like I say, it's politics.

   

Ok, your own bias is quite obvious and we are getting nowhere here. You stick to your little thoughts and I'll stay with mine.

Soon we will get to vote on those, if you are old enough.

   

This whole debate is stupid. It was already settled, adn then Harper wants to reopen it, and so now he says: "Then the debate will be over and settled". You little shit. It was settled to begin with, you just had to turn it into an "election promise" that could easily be fullfilled and is just a waste of time.

How about you own up on some of the other big ones, like Government accountability and openess.

   

I ask you a question, you don't bother answering it. What has any bias I may have got to do with it?

Are you, or are you not, in favor of politicians making hollow gestures to pacify special interests groups, just to get their vote? And does that count as "keeping an election promise"? It's not a hard question.


I don't know whether to feel insulted that you think my opinion is juvenile, or amused that you are dismissing me without addressing my question, which merely encourages me to have a bias against *your* opinion...

   

Thanks. I think I'll make it my sig.


Shhhh! Those involve ACTUAL work instead of hollow gestures.

   

True, however to be fair, Harper has gotten shiny new toys for the military and has gotten tough on the international stage, even though I find some of his foreign policy damaging...

   

Well, really discussing this with you is akin to pissing in the wind. I am aware enough to realise that politics is not straight forward and obvious at all times.

Certainly I support the Tories, and I also understand they have to do certain things to appease supporters in certain camps. If this concept is too complicated and too alien to you then we are at different political maturity levels.

Maybe you can find somebody who jives with your views. My position has been stated. Now you find one.

Oh and Artic, Harper is doing this because he said he would.

   

#1. He didn't have to do this one.

#2. He said he'd make government more open and accountable...Where are those promises?

   

I disagree. The Christian right of the party so strong in Alberta ensured he would have to do this.

The open and accountable bit? He's pretty open and accountable as far as I can see. Just because he's having a pissing match with the media doesn't make him any less open.

It's a relief not to see him act like Paul Martin who was on the news every night spoutin any old load of bollocks that came into his head.

I watch question period and I'd say he's open and accountable, but hey, I'm biased, I'm a Tory!

   

I guess I should be insulted then that you seem to think I am so naive as to believe that a politician who campaigned on being a "straight shooter" wouldn't actually carry through with it. I never said I believed his schtick, just that I'm surprised at how many people support a campaign of "openness and honesty" knowing full well that it's all a farce.


There you go again, insulting my intelligence. So just because I like to hold politicians to a higher standard than they themselves like to (privately anyway, publicly they'll talk lots about 'governement accountability'), I'm "immature"? So what do I tell the people who constantly shout "Promise made, promise kept"? "Oh, well if you believe that, you're stupider than I give you credit for... because only idiots chant a mantra completely contrary to reality..."


Actually, you've been dodging my question the entire time, throwing insults at my intelligence and maturity instead. So I guess I'll just assume what your position is from the "life lessons" you've been throwing my way. You seem to believe that just because politicians double deal, that it's ok. Doesn't matter if it's a hollow gesture, it's ok to do it because that's reality. Am I correct? Or am I simplifying it too much?

FYI, "Everybody else does it" is a poor excuse in my book, and sounds like the words of a 10 year old trying to weasel out of personal responsability...

And that's it for me on this segment. Because this discussion has gotten WAY off topic. If it manages to get back to the issue of gay marriage, I'll be happy to continue the discussion.

   

I didn't call you immature. I just pointed out that we operate at differing maturity levels.

It's quite obvious you are anti-Tory. If you put your own partisan opinions aside I'm willing to debate the issue.

As stated I have made my point, I'm still waiting for your point of view.

   

First you question whether I'm old enough to vote, therby implying that I'm immature both in mind and body, then through talking about "maturity levels" you imply that I'm not as mature as you. How is either NOT calling me immature?


I still don't see how any bias on my part affects your ability to state your position. And for the record, I'm leaning towards anti-Tory, but if a Liberal or NDP'er pulled the same stunt I'd rant about them just as much I assure you. For example, I'm quite disappointed that the NDP isn't allowing their members a free vote, and I'm pretty sure the only reason the Liberals are allowing one is because they know the motion will fail (that and they want to deny the Conservatives any soundbytes for the next election).


And I gave it. I feel that politicians who use the "well the other guys do it" excuse hardly deserve any more respect than than the party they are harping about (no pun intended).

I also believe, as I previously stated, that chanting "promise made, promise kept" is rather pointless if your party still engages in the age old trade of hollow gestures to special interest groups. Political reality or no, it's still dishonest, especially coming from a party that is trying to sell itself on the concept of it not being a pack of liars, unlike the guys they replaced...

I feel it's fair game to criticize them for that, since they made it a central campaign issue. After all, they were banking on people being "fed up" with all the "Liberal lies and back-door-dealings", right?

   

Who's stumbling and fumbling?
All parties have different sections and wings. Harper had to do this.

But really the party is moving more to the centre all the time. The far right bible bashers are starting to realise that they are becoming less relevant. I think that's a good thing.

On topic I don't think any of the openly Tory posters here are against SSM. We also understand why there has to be a vote.

Now Avro, I didn't expect you to agree with any of it as we are all well aware of your own personal politics.

We will have to agree to differ.

   

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