Assault on Reason
Zipperfish @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:26 pm
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that most global warming opponents also believe that the earth was created by an omnipotent god 5000 years ago.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:33 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that most global warming opponents also believe that the earth was created by an omnipotent god 5000 years ago.
"Most" being generously defined as 50% +1 - please substantiate this, thank you.
Zipperfish @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:56 pm
The AGW skepetic crowd is driven predominately by the political right, which, in contemporary America (the bastion of AGW skeptics), is driven by the Christian right. I think that's probbaly the "asault on reason" to which Mr. Gore refers.
BartSimpson @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:35 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
The AGW skepetic crowd is driven predominately by the political right, which, in contemporary America (the bastion of AGW skeptics), is driven by the Christian right. I think that's probbaly the "asault on reason" to which Mr. Gore refers.
Again, care to substantiate this with a standard of evidence you'd accept were I making a similar claim?
Zipperfish @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:59 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
The AGW skepetic crowd is driven predominately by the political right, which, in contemporary America (the bastion of AGW skeptics), is driven by the Christian right. I think that's probbaly the "asault on reason" to which Mr. Gore refers.
Again, care to substantiate this with a standard of evidence you'd accept were I making a similar claim?
Nope, just a general feeling on my part. Shared by many others, I'm sure--probably including Mr. Gore. Pretty self-evident, too, in my opinion.
Delwin @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:06 pm
That's a good point, how can global warming be a threat, the Christian right knows that the world is supposed to end like this:
$1:
I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood. 6:13 The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind. 6:14 The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 6:15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. 6:16 They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 6:17 for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”
7:1 After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree. 7:2 I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea, 7:3 saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!” 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
7:1 After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree. 7:2 I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea, 7:3 saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!” 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
So the question is, can someone believe that humanity is going to end as above and still believe that there is something else that might threaten humanity ? or more importantly, can global warming cause these events? If not, then it is simply no risk to humanity.
ridenrain @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:33 pm
So it's those evil old Christians at it again? Lol.
I'd say it's the greens that have taken a vacation from reason in their blind following of the new Kyoto religion. Why else would unbelievers of the "science" be shouted down like heritics.
Delwin @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:52 pm
Well I think it is a fair question. If the Christian right is unwilling to accept that the world began any other way then is stated in the bible, how can they possibly accept that it will end any other way than is stated in the bible ?
In that view, isn't it clear that there is no threat man-made or otherwise that could alter the means of their demise. It's like a protective barrier against things like global warming. It certainly explains the Pope's confidence.
Wullu @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:56 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that most global warming opponents also believe that the earth was created by an omnipotent god 5000 years ago.
"Most" being generously defined as 50% +1 - please substantiate this, thank you.
Minus one for me Bart, now he needs +2.
There are at least two right leaning atheists on here that don't buy into the Goracle's vision of the future (aka his bank ballooning bank account).
Thanos @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:59 pm
The Pope was merely reminding everyone of the Bible's admonition to not be so eager to follow charlatans and fakers.
The words "reason" and "algore" shouldn't even be used together in the same sentence.
N_Fiddledog @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:05 pm
I'm not sure I get the logic of this "the Pope thinks we should go forward with prudence, so all skeptics are Christians" thing. Global warming advocate John Travolta is a Scientologist. So does that mean all global warmers are Scientologists.
Come to think of it, this is cute...
$1:
With five private jets, Travolta still lectures on global warming
His serious aviation habit means he is hardly the best person to lecture others on the environment. But John Travolta went ahead and did it anyway.
The 53-year-old actor, a passionate pilot, encouraged his fans to "do their bit" to tackle global warming.
But although he readily admitted: "I fly jets", he failed to mention he actually owns five, along with his own private runway.
Clocking up at least 30,000 flying miles in the past 12 months means he has produced an estimated 800 tons of carbon emissions – nearly 100 times the average Briton's tally.
Travolta made his comments this week at the British premiere of his movie, Wild Hogs.
He spoke of the importance of helping the environment by using "alternative methods of fuel" – after driving down the red carpet on a Harley Davidson.
Travolta, a Scientologist, claimed the solution to global warming could be found in outer space and blamed his hefty flying mileage on the nature of the movie business.
His serious aviation habit means he is hardly the best person to lecture others on the environment. But John Travolta went ahead and did it anyway.
The 53-year-old actor, a passionate pilot, encouraged his fans to "do their bit" to tackle global warming.
But although he readily admitted: "I fly jets", he failed to mention he actually owns five, along with his own private runway.
Clocking up at least 30,000 flying miles in the past 12 months means he has produced an estimated 800 tons of carbon emissions – nearly 100 times the average Briton's tally.
Travolta made his comments this week at the British premiere of his movie, Wild Hogs.
He spoke of the importance of helping the environment by using "alternative methods of fuel" – after driving down the red carpet on a Harley Davidson.
Travolta, a Scientologist, claimed the solution to global warming could be found in outer space and blamed his hefty flying mileage on the nature of the movie business.
Thanos @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:08 pm
N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
I'm not sure I get the logic of this "the Pope thinks we should go forward with prudence, so all skeptics are Christians" thing. Global warming advocate John Travolta is a Scientologist. So does that mean all global warmers are Scientologists.
Come to think of it, this is cute...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/a ... article.do
Come to think of it, this is cute...
$1:
With five private jets, Travolta still lectures on global warming
His serious aviation habit means he is hardly the best person to lecture others on the environment. But John Travolta went ahead and did it anyway.
The 53-year-old actor, a passionate pilot, encouraged his fans to "do their bit" to tackle global warming.
But although he readily admitted: "I fly jets", he failed to mention he actually owns five, along with his own private runway.
Clocking up at least 30,000 flying miles in the past 12 months means he has produced an estimated 800 tons of carbon emissions – nearly 100 times the average Briton's tally.
Travolta made his comments this week at the British premiere of his movie, Wild Hogs.
He spoke of the importance of helping the environment by using "alternative methods of fuel" – after driving down the red carpet on a Harley Davidson.
Travolta, a Scientologist, claimed the solution to global warming could be found in outer space and blamed his hefty flying mileage on the nature of the movie business.
His serious aviation habit means he is hardly the best person to lecture others on the environment. But John Travolta went ahead and did it anyway.
The 53-year-old actor, a passionate pilot, encouraged his fans to "do their bit" to tackle global warming.
But although he readily admitted: "I fly jets", he failed to mention he actually owns five, along with his own private runway.
Clocking up at least 30,000 flying miles in the past 12 months means he has produced an estimated 800 tons of carbon emissions – nearly 100 times the average Briton's tally.
Travolta made his comments this week at the British premiere of his movie, Wild Hogs.
He spoke of the importance of helping the environment by using "alternative methods of fuel" – after driving down the red carpet on a Harley Davidson.
Travolta, a Scientologist, claimed the solution to global warming could be found in outer space and blamed his hefty flying mileage on the nature of the movie business.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/a ... article.do
Not all fucking idiots are Scientologists but all Scientologists are fucking idiots.
N_Fiddledog @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:12 pm
Damn. There's something wrong with that link I pasted in there. It stretched the whole page wide.
I deleted it in my post, but now it's in your quote Thanos, and the page is still stretched out.
Thanos @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:13 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that most global warming opponents also believe that the earth was created by an omnipotent god 5000 years ago.
Bullshit. Most global warming opponents believe that we shouldn't so blindly sacrifice what is actually a good way of life to an hysteria being generated by a bunch of quasi-religious charlatans and maniacs.
Present me with a logical argument backed by conclusively proven facts and I might be tempted to at least listen to you. Given me sheer panic promulgated by shitheads like Al Gore and Leo DiCaprio and I won't even give you the time of day.
Zipperfish @ Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:46 pm
Thanos Thanos:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I don't think it's much of a coincidence that most global warming opponents also believe that the earth was created by an omnipotent god 5000 years ago.
Bullshit. Most global warming opponents believe that we shouldn't so blindly sacrifice what is actually a good way of life to an hysteria being generated by a bunch of quasi-religious charlatans and maniacs.
Present me with a logical argument backed by conclusively proven facts and I might be tempted to at least listen to you. Given me sheer panic promulgated by shitheads like Al Gore and Leo DiCaprio and I won't even give you the time of day.
First of all, if you want climate change to be "conclusively proven" by facts, then you don't have a firm grasp of scientific epistemology. Proof is a mathematical concept, not a scietnific one. Certainty lies wiht faith, not with science, where science is inherently probablistic and uncertain, even at its most base level (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Theorem, Chaos Theory, Godel's INcompleteness Theorem, Turing's Halting Problem, Shrodingers equations, etc).
So what we have--despite all the attempts of the right wing (and especially the anti-rational Christian right)--is most of the world's scientists doing research in relevant fileds telling us that the planet is warming and it is likely doing so because of CO2 emissions. Science is applied rationality, so it seems perverse to try to paint the world's sceitnists as "charlatans and maniacs." Given the evidence before me, it seems logical to listen to what the scientists are saying. They certainly present a better argument than the alternative (that climate change is the biggest conspiracy everfoisted on the people by a bunch of scientists intent on more research dollars).
It should be noted that the assault on reason is not limited to global warming. The CHirstian right is also trying to muscle Darwin out of schools with its anti-science "intelligent design," the dumbing-down of politics to some silly "us versus them/good versus evil" dichotomy, among others. Just my opinion of course.