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What about my comments of the legitimate sex trade workers though? The people who want to do this are already doing this and are not supportive of this industry because that just adds competition and lower wages.
I also want you're comments on my speculation that the legalization would simply drive the drug addicted or abused prostitutes even father under the scope of the public and help.

We differ in opinions but I've not been so insulting or abusive that you can't deal with these legitimate subjects. Just because you have a different frame of reference does not mean that the rules of the free market or human nature are different.

   

And my status in this country is completely unimportant. My status in any other country is completely unimportant too. So, now we get out of our system...

In my humble opinion, if you legalize prostitution (under strict laws and regulations of course), the people who want to be(come) prostitutes, are working legally. Since you either don't allow streetprostitution, or just at issued places, every hooker on the street will be illegal. That way it is way easier to figure out who is pimped and who is not (most will be, I think), and it will be way easier to get them out of the business they don't want to be in, and get them out of their circumstances, into a safe-house, and try to get their lifes back.

Once you legalize it, you can set a minimum price for a service. Brothels will not outmarket themselves, neither do carshops. Some will not survive, but is that really bad? The classy (and thus expensive ones) will always exist. The sleezy ones will die a slow death. Just like in a normal business situation.

   

In my humble opinion that sounds like something that has been done in europe.

   

And your point is?

   

Please be fair. You can't browbeat us by implying that Europe is so far superior without expecting some push back.

If I was a prostitute by choice, had an established and trusted clientel, why would I go legit? What do I stand to gain? Why would I give a % of my profit to a govenment when I recieve no value?

This is much the same argument I use with the lagalization of pot grow ops. Their already in business so why do they need the government as another partner?

I honestly believe that things will become worst for desperation prostitutes however. They will remain, because drug addicted folks still need to make money, their value will be limited to a fraction of the legitimate prostitute industry price. They will find themselves in the same despearate and shitty conditions and the legitimate industry won't care because that's bad publicity for them.

Worst yet.. the freaks and bad dates that legitimate industry won't service will then prey upon the illegal prostitutes and all the press will say is "too bad they weren't legitimate". I doubt that the folks making money running the business would be putting money into helping these illegal industry folks either.

I still don;t see an advantage.

   

I never said Europe is far superior. Just because I am European, and support legalization of prostitution makes me say Europe is far superior? That is not fair to me. You wouldn't use it on Derby either, don't use it on me.

You could want to go legit because you get your benefits. You get tested every so many weeks, you give your personnel healthcare benefits, you get your business taxbreaks, you can unionize.

I agree with you that you will never get everybody out of illegality, but at least you will have more chance to help them.

I think the industry will do that, just because the illegal give the industry a bad name. And like any other type of business, you don't want that.

But, just like in the car industry, where "a friend of a friend" works on your car "for a couple of beers", the "addicts" will perform sexual acts for "a couple of bucks". Moonlighters will always be there, no matter what...

   

If I was a prostitute already in an established market, I'd alreay be checking for VDs because, like physical fitness, that's in my best interest. I'd also plan for my retirement becuse I know that there's only a few years to make money.

This just drives home my point that the people who want to do this, thought about this and planned out their business, reguardless of the government. These people exist reguardless of what we do in any case, and they usually manage to stay independant of organized crime.

The addicts and despeartion prostitutes, which you didn't mention, will only be hurt by the industry being made legitimate. They will be driven deeper below legality and will suffer even more.

   

It's not true, if a prostitute was a victim, they'd probably grant her immunity for whatever testimony she has against whatever rapist or other criminal she was a victim to.

   

But should we legalize sweatshops now? There are tons of illegal sweatshops in North America, should we legalize them all and try to make a profit? The whole sweatshop industry RELIES on illegal immigration, just like prostitution relies on either desperate girls from broken homes here, or immigrants.

And I Haven't forgot that Derby, no no no. I remember it quite well. The fact that you believe that the illegal sex slave trade will end just because there is legal prostitution seems gullible at best. It'll keep going, poor women will be told you'd get a job in Canada or the US, and then turned into sex slaves and sold off a lot cheaper than in the brothels.



But it hides just as many problems too. You said yourself that you think the sex slave trade will disappear after legal prostitution, which is false. Illegal enterprises will keep on going, since there are still some acts that are illegal, like child prostitutes, and so on and so forth. It will keep on going, and it won't stop.



Did you just prove my point? Thank you. Illegal prostitution still exists when there is legal prostitution.



I said it'd reduce STDs, but it'll still create outbreaks whenever a condom breaks, and then three weeks later the standardized STD check occurs, and oh shit look, she's been spreading disease. Awesome. Don't think it happens? Like I said, look at the porno industry.

Tell me, in all seriousness, that you are totally missing your own hypocrisy. I've been saying legal prostitution won't end illegal prostitution. and you actually said so, but instead of recognizing why, you just put in "medical reasons" instead of realizing they're sex slaves brought in by whatever mob.

You've been telling me that legalizing prostitution brings out problems into the light, and yet you've been denying the impact of the sex slave trade, even where there was legal prostitution. I guess it seems one problems stays hidden, doesn't it?

   

By your logic that we should make immigration illegal also. If you dispute the sex trade being fully legalized because some people would still operate illegal slave sex trades then so to should all buisnesses with that potential. Sweat shops are often clothing manufacturers. They should be made illegal too so that nobody in that industry gets legal protection. Shady used car salesman? No problem. We'll just outlaw all car sales shops and force the auto companies to raflle them off free of charge in a lottery unless somebody can also make that done illegally.

Your logic is nonesense. Legal brothels would provide legal protection, physical protection, financial protectiona and greatly improved medical coverage as well as working conditions. Just because there will still exist people out there not following the law doesn't mean no women deserve protection under the law like any other worker. You might as well hold the belief that because some people can't follow the laws on the road nobody deserves to drive.



No. You just think I said that. Your example is also nonesense because thats whats happening now. Under a legalized sex trade system we would have checks and balances to help prevent this just like the food industry and liquor industry helps insure that health standards are maintained and quality is assured. That there are problems just probes that without these legal checks and balances the problems would be far worse. Sure some brothels operating legally may engage in illegal sex trades but will it be worse then what we have now? I don't think so just as the illegal speak easys of the 20s went the way of the charleston when it was legalized. Look at the liquor industry to see that the vast majority of them are decently run honest buisnesses with legally employed staff. Even strip joints are legally regulated with legal staff and checked quite a bit. I know. I've worked as a bartender and fellow coworkers have had experience working in one. Sure in alot a strip clubs its the avenue to prostitution but quite frankly thats understandable and under a legal brothel system we would very likely see strip clubs paired with upstairs brothels only this time the same legal protection will be extended to the call girls as it is to the strippers.



1) I did not say the illegal sex slave trade would dissapear. I do believe that it will be minimized. Legal owners running an honest buisness will see that they are making good profit running an above board establishment so why would they bother?

2) ALL of that still goes on despite being illegal. Making it legal just means that at least a good portion of the girls are protected and that legal protection means the girls will be all that better equpied to help the ones not protected or in need of help. In addition, legal protection is often accompanied by mandatory informing workers of rights just as they are in my industry and probably everybody elses. We have to be informed every year of WHIMIS and HAZMAT and our rights as workers to refuse unsafe procedures and duties among other things.

So too would legal brothels. Girls would be informed of their rights. They would be informed of medical problems and how to deal with them.

In short, they would be far far better off then working in a non-legal establishement and thats your great hypocracy and great failing. You simply cannot understand that just because we cannot insure every women in the trade is protected we should deny every women what would improve their working conditions immensely and consequently their lives.

BTW, you quoted my words as your words. Below is my quote.





Can you not undestand english? Did you catch the conservative english comprehension disease? Better check your firewall because I think riden infected you. If you read closely I said: making prositution fully legal would in fact end illegal prositution. Think about it. When its fully legal would it not end illegal prostitution? Bit of a play on words. Note that it is not the same as saying that making it legal would eliminate associated prostitution problems.



Your inability to uderstand my words does not constitute hypocracy. What understanding of the trade do you have? Have you ever spoken to a prostitute? Do you understand the law regarding it? The fact is that for alot of reasons women find themselves in this buisness. Some do it because they cannot get a good enough paying job to support themselves and their children (if any). Some actually do it to put themselves through school just as alot of strippers do. Some do it because they can make way more money doing it then they ever could doing a regula job. Whatever the reason is their lives would be much better off if they were afforded legal protection and conditions that co along with it.

All you are doing is saying that because some women will still suffer they all should.

Just who the hell are you to dictate to people what they can and cannot do with their bodies?

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/2/109



This higlights the difference between the brothel type prositution and the street worker variety. No matter what, providing legal protection in one form or another will help more girls then keeping it illegal.

All this an we never even touched on male gigilos. We are such sexists.

   

My source above contradicts you both. In addition, you are forgetting that even if the police wouldn't prosecute the women it doesn't mean that the women don't go to the police out of fear they would be prosecuted.

   

Actually no, your source just states that they FEAR prosecution, not that it actually happens. There is a difference Derby.

   

No I said that.

My source said this: When prospective clients are convicted of the criminal offence of "communicating" they are, unlike the prostitutes themselves, rarely jailed and this: while young girls, frequently homeless, must fight it out on the streets with both clients and police.

It also illustartes that municipalities and police have switched from policing these brothels instead focusing on what tax regulations they can enforce just like other buisnesses. In fact, most municipalities gave up on enforcement long ago, turning instead to regulation, licensing and, as for all commercial establishments, taxation.

In other words they see the uselessness of raiding theses establishments and jailing everybody (at large taxpayer expense) only to have another sprout up immediately. They have decides that they deserve the tax revenue for something that since we are turing a blind eye to policing wise we might as well fully legalize it for full tx gain and full protection for the workers.

Try reading my post before answering OK.

   

That is your argument?
I don't think this is necessarily true though. If you give the addicts (or streethookers, or how you want to call them) a "streethookerplace" to work their clients, they are out in the open. For them too, their work will be legit, and they can see a doctor for their check ups. Go to the police if they are beaten up, or just scared. Can't do that now... Police can put cars out for surveilance. That they won't fill out a tax form is another thing

The desperation prostitutes... Which ones again? The ones that can't get a job in any brothel? The ones that can't be pimped out? Because they are protected by law too?

   

Making prostitution fully legal ends all illegal prostitution. No shit Derby. Making all crime fully legal ends all crime too. I'm guessing that's your argument? Make all prostitution legal? Child prostitutes? Make them legal, have child brothels. Seriously Derby, grow up. You want prostitution legal? Fine, but where's the limit? Children? Women smuggled in? How about sex slaves?



Okay, and some prostitutes are forced to do it, some prostitutes are forced by pimps and mob members to be prostitutes after being smuggled in and intimidated. Some are whored out by their family members because of whatever reason. Either way, you're arguing nothing. There are plenty of reasons why they might be prostitutes.



And so far, your logic is to make everything completely legal. Like you said, let's legalize ALL prostitution. So let's legalize everything else. Make all immigration legal, let's make all sweatshops legal as well, toss away any business regulation. Let's make sure there are no laws for the safety on the roads. Who needs environmental regulation or gun laws? Want to drag race in the middle of a crowded street? Do so.

There are already legal forms of prostitution, like the porno industry, and in a very watered down way, stripping is like prostitution lite. And, where do we draw the line? Should we start making legal brothels? What about all the prostitutes that have been forced into the business? Do they get pushed aside as police units that used to enforce prostitution laws get dissolved so they can regulate brothels? Sure, those women IN the brothels would be safe, but would the ones on the street be at more risk?

Stop yelling and tossing tantrums and insults. What do you want? Fully legal prostitution? Or do you want some limits? All I've been discussing is that brothels do not confront the sex slave trade. The fact is, it probably won't help as mob groups might start running their own, using legal protections to protect their business and their illegal prostitutes. Do we have government licensed brothels? Or government run brothels? Should we have brothels like we have the Beer Store? You can't just snap your fingers and make something legal. You need a plan, and so far yelling that you can't control what people do with their bodies (and yet the government can control what I own. Why should prostitution be legal when I can't own some firearms?) isn't a plan.

   

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