Booing U.S. kids was disgraceful

>>> The way I look at it there has to be a balance.<<<<

Can you see how a fellow could get rankled from time to time?

>> Yes you did, and again isolated incidents can't be used to support any proposition concerning an overall 'systemic' problem<<<

Come on…

I just got a DVD sent to me of some of the liberal attack ads against the Conservatives, trying to do equate them with the USA. Don’t you think that shite was run by focus groups and put out there because it works? Come on Calumny. Don’t insult my intelligence by calling stuff like this isolated incidents. I wont insult yours because you already have enough people doing it with crap like that.

>> But on this subject, I was driving behind a van with Canadian lplates yesterday and a 'God Bless The USA' ribbon sticker on the right and left side of the rear plate.<<<<

Last time I was up there some jerk in a van stole my 'God Bless The USA' ribbon stickers… I wonder….

>>>I could draw a number of conclusions concerning 'systemic' problems from visiting some U.S. based self-styled 'Conservative' sites<<<

News flash: we have systemic problems.

>>I have a considerable belief in the inherent 'okayness' of most U.S. citizens, and people in general.<<

As do I for most Canadians. Doesn’t that lend itself to the belief that a lot of this is unnecessary, or that since we share common objectives for the most part that cooperation isn’t a bad thing when it is not injurious to one or the other?
No one down here wants a mindless toady, or to assimilate Canada, just an adult relationship based on truth and respect, not just feelings and mythology.

>>>Anyway, God Bless America and all its citizens. Most are decent folk just like most Canadians and I don't wish harm to any.<<<

Whelp, same here for you lot.

>>And I thank you "Doc".<<<

;-)

<<Can you see how a fellow could get rankled from time to time? >>

Yes, I can and I think I've said so elsewhere. I mean geez, imagine if you were me...on one side trying to tell people the U.S., or at least its citizens, aren't the 'problem' and on the other trying to point out that Canadians in general don't 'hate' the U.S. or its citizens in the terms you and other anons describe.

Ain't easy being me.

However, if we're not going to insult one another's intelligence, let's not pretend that many of your and other anon comments made in this and other threads have anything to do with fostering a 'spirit of co-operation'.

Whatever little barbs and jests we may trade aside, I try to treat you as a person acting in good faith, which isn't easy because as we both know many of your contributions so parallel classic 'trolling' techniques.

I mean, as I recall this time last year year you (and forgive me if my memory deceives me) were only here because of the motorcycle accident broken leg laying you up and you having nothing better to do. So, I'm a bit surprised to return after taking a few months off to do other things and find you still visiting a site based in a nation nobody pays attention to anyway and hectoring those who by now you must realize are too dense too 'get it'.

But I try, and the comments that follow are meant in that spirit.

You're obviously a bright guy, so you're aware that there are a lot more people visiting sites like Vive just to read, as opposed to the thirty or forty who at any given time may contribute comments, etc.

So, if you and other anons were really all that concerned about fostering good feelings between our nations and/or disputing facts you believe erroneous, one-sided, etc., there'd be a lot fewer 'Cana-Duhs', etc. on the site than is currently the case and a lot more reasoned arguments devoid of name-calling etc., against stuff you feel is in error on Vive.

All these comments serve to do for most lurkers is substantiate whatever less than high opinion they may have of the U.S. and its citizens, which is partly why I try to include the 'most U,S, citizens are okay and just like us' stuff.

Whatever 'systemic' problem, if any, mIght exist in Canada re: the U.S. are simply exacerbated by the type of comments various U.S. defending anons have made in this thread and others.

I'm obviously aware that there are a number of idiotic and insulting comments from Canadians on this site and have pointed out on several occasions that these do absolutely nothing to further whatever notion of 'Canadian sovereignty' various participants might have, in fact rather the opposite.

However, you and other anons either feeding into or starting this type of nonsense obviously doesn't improve the situation.

<<Come on…

I just got a DVD sent to me of some of the liberal attack ads against the Conservatives, trying to do equate them with the USA. Don’t you think that shite was run by focus groups and put out there because it works? Come on Calumny. Don’t insult my intelligence by calling stuff like this isolated incidents. I wont insult yours because you already have enough people doing it with crap like that.>>

I mentioned in another thread that there has been a historic 'wariness' of the U.S. in Canada, as is true of any mation bordering a more powerful neighbour. And I also mentioned this has been mined by politicians before, just as in our respective nations regional politicians pit one region against another in a cynical attempt to gain votes or pick whatever easy target offers itself, whether 'welfare deadbeats', 'immigrants' or whatever else is convenient. Some aspects of this have been described as anti-Americanism however, outside of anon comments on Vive, I've never seen it typified as the type of 'hatred' you and others view it as.

I've given my opinion of the commercials in a forum thread.

As discussed elsewhere, these seem to have backfired, which to some degree demonstrates that the rampant anti=Americanism you see isn't there for most and whatever 'focus groups' may have been utilized were a bit off the mark.

Another article I mentioned pointed out that these types of attack/create fear commercial were basically imported from...guess where? I've seen plenty on U.S. TV and found them distateful, as I think is true for most Canadians and, based on the impact of the most recent, is in fact the case.

<<Last time I was up there some jerk in a van stole my 'God Bless The USA' ribbon stickers… I wonder…. >>

Obviously someone who, though less than ethical, loves the U.S. however wasn't able to obtain the stickers any other way.

<<News flash: we have systemic problems. >>

I'm quite aware both our nations do. As I'm not a U.S. citizen, I don't concern myself with yours. Whatever problems the U.S. may have can only be solved by its own citizens.

All I'm saying is that the type of rampant anti-Americani 'hatred' you describe isn't one of them and again, you've produced nothing but isolated indidents to support your case that there is.

We both know a lot of crappy stuff happens every day and has happened throughout history. Frankly, there's plenty of daily happenings and plenty of historic incidents to support a case that humans are inherently evil and malicious.

However, there are more that indicate this isn't in fact the case however, daily acts of decency, kindness. etc. don't generally make the news or history books. Stuff like concentration camps, the extermination of the Cathars, Attila the Hun and Hittite leveling of cities does, in our day and age simply because controversy sells and we have way too many 'news sources' , of the 24 hour variety and other, filled with prople whose jobs are dependent of finding 'news'.

The numerous incidents of U.S. kids visiting Canada and vice versa and having a good time, then going home happy really aren't newsworthy. So, we won't hear much about those.

The other thing about humans I learned long ago is that at times we focus on the bad and forgewt about the good. I first noticed this as a teen working in my parent's store. Every day you'd have a few hundred customers and most would be friendly and pleasant or simply innocuous. However, sometimes you'd have the one clown who wanted to take his bad day out on you. I noticed I'd had a tendency to measure my day by the clown rather than the several hundred other nice people. So, since that time I've worked at keeping this in perspective.

Similarly, while you've mentioned bad incidents about your or other people's visits to Canada, there must have been good things that happened as well and probably more good than bad.

I mean, if I visited NYC and had two great weeks then got mugged on my last day there, what should I judge the city by?

Getting back to the 'systemic issues', I've know a lot of U.S. expatriates in my time, mostly of the draft dodger variety (and not necessarily falling into the generalized 'coward' etc. category some might place them in) who obviously cared about their country however, weren't greatly impressed by some other aspects of the society. And, I got my fill of their opinions.

I'm sure we could visit web forums set up by citizens of most nations, including the U.S., and find pretty much the same stuff found here on Vive. Do all those societies, including your own, also have a 'systemic' problem with anti-Americanism? Is everyone with some concern/hard-feeling towards U.S. actions, if not its people, simply envious, a back-stabber, ungrateful or a pinko?

In terms of whatever anti-American feeling that may exist throughout the world, the source is as much or more south of the border as it is envy, misunderstanding, ingratitude or anything else. I'm not saying these aren't present, just that they are the sole, or perhaps even significant, factor.

And it isn't, or shouldn't be, directed as Joe U.S. citizen, who for the most part is simply as powerless entity in their nation as everyone else is in their own.

And in these U.S. discussions apples and oranges often get mixed together so that concerns regarding U.S. neo-liberalism and/or its government get mixed in with more generalized attitude toward the U.S. itself.

Again, sweeping generalizations are sometimes easier for the human mind and the rapidly typing web poster to deal with than a more specific approach, e.g., its easier to say the 'U.S. Sucks' than 'some parts of the U.S. government suck' or 'the neo-liberal policies forwarded by some U.S. interests suck'.

Admittedly, this rather sweeping generalization can make it's way into the real world where some nimrod who probably couldn't spell Canada if you gave him three tries decides that some elderly U.S. citizen or kid 'sucks' and he'll show them be 'I'm Canadian'. But again, that isn't limited to Canada or support any general proposition of the nature you come across as supporting that all Canadian dream of drenching their hands in U.S. blood, anymore than some comments on U.S. and other Conservative sites would support the notion that all members of a poster's society want to shoot gays, Democrats, Republicans, socialist, neo-cons, Jews, Catholics, blacks, whites... whatever.

<<Doesn’t that lend itself to the belief that a lot of this is unnecessary, or that since we share common objectives for the most part that cooperation isn’t a bad thing when it is not injurious to one or the other?
No one down here wants a mindless toady, or to assimilate Canada, just an adult relationship based on truth and respect, not just feelings and mythology.>>

Obviously, a lot of this, i.e., posting on web forums, is unecessary and simply a bunch of yahoos blowing off steam.

However, in terms of what you mean, Canada and the U.S. cooperate on many things, and will continue to do so, that will never make Vive or come to the attention of most Vive participants, whether U.S. or Canadian. Implying that this isn't the case is simply wrong.

Again the stuff that makes the papers is going to be the disagreements because these are newsworthy, or at least known. Regardless of asinine commercials and whatever gets said here or in the papers, there is far more agreement than disagreement.

And disagreements that may involve economic beliefs rather than any antipathy towards the people of a particular nation should be recognized as such.

And the fact is, whether I'm Canadian or happened to be a U.S. citizen, I wouldn't agree with many things that are happening in the U.S., just as I don't agree with a number of things in the Canadian system.

<< just an adult relationship based on truth and respect>>

And if you asked most Canadians, if they ever thought about it that's what they'd feel we have...over and beyond the historic fact of various U.S. governments basically walking over whoever they chose, including some of their own citizens.

<< not just feelings and mythology>>

Whether good or bad, that's how many people view things, both here, south of the border and elsewhere. They don't live in the country that is, they live in the one they want to believe exists. I think that may be why the New Orleans circumstances apparently came as such a shock to many U.S,. citizens. I mean, if it had happened in Canada, most of us wouldn't be that surprised because we aren't constantly fed a line about being the 'most powerful country in history', blah, blah, blah. We expect our government will screw up, not that that's a good thing.

However, average Canadians again stepped up to mark in trying to help out. I know every school and community organization in this town sent a lot of stuff down , with some contributors doing so out of the munificent $800.00 monthly disability pension that our wonderful 'socialist' nation (or province in this case) provides.

So, you'll really have to forgive me if I always end up in my 'fall-back' position of the 'hate' you describe not being endemic throughout Canadian society.

I mean, let's face it...for all the BS that's gone on here, you, me, Dr. Caleb and a few others could sit down and enjoy a few beers without getting into any of this crap and have a good time doing so.

---
"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).

Well said Calumny. Thank you

Well said Calumny. Thank you.

Sorry it took a while to get back to you Calumny, I had to wait for the cliffs notes for your post to be delivered. ;-)

>>.let's not pretend that many of your and other anon comments made in this and other threads have anything to do with fostering a 'spirit of co-operation'.<<<

At times yes, seriously. A lot of this victim-hood mythology never gets challenged. The “they did this to us” hogwash stories like the Avro Arrow or they are “stealing our oil” or, gasp, “Deep integration™” eventually take on a vaneer of truth if there isn’t some pest shining light on the subject. It is human nature to wallow in self serving myths, as long as it isn’t hurting anyone else I would say fine, however a lot of this is being used to manipulate Canadians through fear and prejudice, something that even you would probably grudgingly admit.

At times no… There are some people who are obviously unreachable.

>>>, I try to treat you as a person acting in good faith, which isn't easy because as we both know many of your contributions so parallel classic 'trolling' techniques.<<<

Humm, I don’t know that I like the sound of that. As a matter of fact we don’t both know that Calumny. Perhaps you think I should tale all of this more seriously? Be more respectful? Am I being disrespectful of you now? Trolling? Since we have decided to not insult each other’s intelligence let me give it to you straight, there are some people who post here that do not deserve a whole lot of deference.

>>>>I mean, as I recall this time last year year you (and forgive me if my memory deceives me) were only here because of the motorcycle accident broken leg laying you up and you having nothing better to do.<<<<<

Quite correct. The leg now works and even the motorcycle is back together. No more excuses.

>>So, I'm a bit surprised to return after taking a few months off<<<

There was a break of about a month plus periodic weeks off here and there. In about 2 weeks you will be getting another one. I am grooming a replacement bastard to fill in while I am doing my thing.

>>You still visiting a site based in a nation nobody pays attention to anyway and hectoring those who by now you must realize are too dense too 'get it'.<<<

So, what are you doing back here? Don’t sell yourselves so short Calumny, you will eventually get it… Ill see to it. :-D

>>>All these comments serve to do for most lurkers is substantiate whatever less than high opinion they may have of the U.S. and its citizens,<<<

I would suppose it depends on the lurker. I can pretty much guarantee you that I have gotten a few people to really examine the whole “deep integration™” bullshit. One person stated that they felt that they had been duped. At any rate, I believe in getting it all out, not having it be someone’s private excuse for being smug and morally superior for living in a way that is just about identical.

>>.Whatever 'systemic' problem, if any, mIght exist in Canada re: the U.S. are simply exacerbated by the type of comments various U.S. defending anons have made in this thread and others.<<<<

What would you suggest? The ‘ol dart board approach?

>>.However, you and other anons either feeding into or starting this type of nonsense obviously doesn't improve the situation.<<<<

In some cases no. However in some cases there may be an epiphany. I can only hope that there may have been someone who has caught him or herself in a bigoted or irrational line of thought and said to him or herself, this is not the kind of primitive mindset that I want to have. I do not want to be a person that is so knee-jerk prejudice. Hey, call me an optimist.

>>Some aspects of this have been described as anti-Americanism however, outside of anon comments on Vive, I've never seen it typified as the type of 'hatred' you and others view it as.<<<

Well I have. And some of the comments from vive regulars, including featured authors are absolutely reprehensible. If you wont allow yourself to recognize that perhaps you are one of the ones that is unreachable. If you are trying to convince me that there isn’t a strain of anti-Americanism up there that far eclipses any kind of reciprocal resentment down here, well I have seen otherwise. (More over, I have loved ones that have seen otherwise. Its easier to pull that crap on 5’2” women then 6’1” men.)

>>. As discussed elsewhere, these seem to have backfired,<<<

Well it is obvious that I am >directly< responsible for that bit of demagoguery backfiring. I have been pointing it out for months. People were bound to see it for what it is…at long last. Face it Calumny, one day you will be tanking me for your better government. :-D

>>> Obviously someone who, though less than ethical, loves the U.S. however wasn't able to obtain the stickers any other way.

<<<<

That was a joke, believe it or not it wouldn’t occur to me to buy one of those things. I am patriotic, not tacky. Cheers to the fellow with the van though. Perhaps he or she is a kindred spirit, a dyed in the wool contrarian.

I have no doubt that there are many like that who tend to like the basterdos,I know a few, I also know that it varies from province to province. I suspect you won’t see too many of those magnetic stickers in Toronto. (Where they are oh so hip.)

>>> All I'm saying is that the type of rampant anti-American 'hatred' you describe isn't one of them and again, you've produced nothing but isolated indidents to support your case that there is.<<<<

One of your reoccurring themes Calumny is to pop in and insist that there is nothing amiss here. Someone says Americans deserved to be attacked on September 11th, that it was “payback” and “what goes around comes around” well, pish tosh, nothing to see here, move along. Someone pops up and says that Americans are the biggest force of “evil’ in the world with a half dozen lemmings latching on in agreement, well, pay no attention look over here, something shiny… A smarmy "college" professor chimes in with a litany of unfair hyperbole in his weekly anti-American polemic, here is Calumny telling me it is all on the up and up and really indicative of nothing in particular. Nothing to see here, move along.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" –Chico Marx

Sorry Calumny, if you can’t see what is going on, especially on this site perhaps we should just get down to calling each other snow-monkey and bastard. I >honestly< think you are better then that but either way the whole Canadian chamber of commerce routine isn’t going to fly here. Especially when you’re comments are bracketed by those who hold the very attitudes that you deny exist.

>>. The numerous incidents of U.S. kids visiting Canada and vice versa and having a good time, then going home happy really aren't newsworthy. So, we won't hear much about those.<<<

Agreed.

>> Similarly, while you've mentioned bad incidents about your or other people's visits to Canada, there must have been good things that happened as well and probably more good than bad.<<<

Absolutely. If there weren’t aspects of Canada that I didn’t love do you think I would have approached this with so much passion? This is, in a nutshell why I am so irascible. The whole dirtying up something that has brought me so much enjoyment thing.

>>. I mean, if I visited NYC and had two great weeks then got mugged on my last day there, what should I judge the city by?<<<

I am not going there.

>>. And disagreements that may involve economic beliefs rather than any antipathy towards the people of a particular nation should be recognized as such.<<<

You think? Maybe someone should point that out from time to time?

>>> ...over and beyond the historic fact of various U.S. governments basically walking over whoever they chose, including some of their own citizens.<<<<

Oh, you were so close to getting through it without letting a sweeping generalization like that pop up as “historic fact”. Could it be that you possess a little of that attitude that you want to tell me doesn’t exist? The historic fact is that Americans, like Canadians are human beings who are capable of doing smart and stupid things.

>>> because we aren't constantly fed a line about being the 'most powerful country in history', blah, blah, blah<<<<

Yes, I am actually late to have that line fed to me. See Calumny, see some of the basic premises that you accept as “truth?” See what I am talking about? With BS like that it isn’t much of an extrapolation to wind up where we are now.

>>> I mean, let's face it...for all the BS that's gone on here, you, me, Dr. Caleb and a few others could sit down and enjoy a few beers without getting into any of this crap and have a good time doing so.<<<

Without a doubt, I absolutely believe that. Unfortunately if things go as they are trending you are not going to have too many Americans and Canadians going out of their ways to sit down for beers with each other and that is a >real shame,< even if it did mean that the Yanks were going to get stuck with the bar tab.

Sorry it took a while to get back to you Calumny, I had to wait for the cliffs notes for your post to be delivered. ;-)

>>> Obviously someone who, though less than ethical, loves the U.S. however wasn't able to obtain the stickers any other way.