The Move Away From Democracy, and the Role of the NDP

FurGaia,

Once again you embedded a very important article into a thread that will not allow for a good discussion on it. (However my judgement of what is important to Canadian sovereignty has gone unnoticed before?)

I can see having a coalition between the NDP and Liberals but would not want them to join together. I do not agree with Lloyd Axworthy saying we need to do our trade agreements via the WTO though. NO WAY. NO NAFTA. NO WTO. There has to be something better than either of these two options. There has to be something made in Canada for Canada. The WTO smells just as heavily of eau de corporate toilets as does NAFTA and the Canadian government.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche

Glad to see someone who sees the NDP clearly! They gave in to both Ford and GM when they demanded more money, only to see both slash jobs and work in Canada.

I support the NDPers who are trying to distance themselves from the unions. Until they can say no to corporate welfare when their union backers are concerned, like Innes said, they can not be fully trusted to do the right thing.

One last thing - during the last government the NDP had the perfect chance to demand and help bring forth real electoral reform when the Liberal government hung by a thread - they did well asking for more social spending etc, but failed miserably in regards to the long term health of our democracy and in turn our country.

The time will come soon when the Conservatives will be in the same position... will the NDP seize the moment or acquiesce for another substandard election?

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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.

There are many good decent left leaning progressives among the Liberal party - let's not tar them all with the same brush!

While it may be a good idea, and could work (joining together some parties/selected people), why not just press for real electoral reform that counts votes in a more fair and rational way?

The Bloc aside - a two party system is not what Canada needs going forward. Look South for what happens...

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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.

The only way to preserve democracy is to have an interested and well informed voting public participating in the process

There IS no other way.

In a system more and more flooded by sound byte politics, and flashy ads it is all too easy to lose sight of the fact that there's a lot more going on that the politicians want us to know.

It is the duty of all Canadians to find out what their elected officials are up to, what they they believe, and who they are beholden to.

This is still for the most part OUR home and native land; let's try to keep it that way.

Why is that canadians duty? We have no power to impact Ottawa, we don't even have the power to impact our local municipal government. Yet its OUR duty to spend endless hours reading all about politics as we watch from the sidelines?

The above is a perfect example of what politics means in Canada-endless arguments about hypothetical scenarios. What should the NDP do, what should the liberals do? Will they? Won't they? And its supposed to be our DUTY to take part in that? Rubbish! I've got a living to make, a family to raise, parents to support and bills to pay. I"ve got no time for armchair politicking. Canadians have NO power over what elected officials do, in more honest places they call that tryranny. It sure as hell isn't my 'duty' to play any part in upholding a constitutional monarchy.

When we have DEMOCRACY, THEN talk about duty. Nobody has any right to say I should support it, let alone that it's my DUTY to support it.

The needs for democratic reforms seem to sum it all. Will Quebec lead the way on this matter (after the BC experiment)? I doubt very much that real democratic reforms will happen first at the federal level. It is far too dysfunctional.

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"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

We have no power?

We have the power of numbers, there are a lot more citizens than there are politicians.

When hundreds of thousands, preferably millions, take to the streets in peaceful protests demanding change they WILL listen.

And if all those people know, and understand , what is going on and the mechanics behind it then they'll be immune to sounds bytes and to rhetorical bullsh*t.

You seem to think that the only way to vote in a democracy is with a piece of paper and a pencil.

You say we have no power, I say you are a defeatest who is beaten already.

Sticks and stones. Again, hypothetical. When 'millions' show up in the streets then we can have the debate again. There have been plenty of demonstrations in the past, usually they are simply ignored by the media. Other canadians have a living to make, families to raise, etc. If a country can only get just over half to vote, what chance is there that they are going to 'take to the streets'. In fact, what is standing in the street going to do?

You can keep hoping for a cause that millions will take to the streets. Others will fight political battles POLITICALLY. Just do a search here on direct democracy and you will see that it's the exact OPPOSITE of 'defeatist'.

You do what you consider necessary and I will do likewise. Perhaps we're both on the same side but with different perceptions on how to do it.

I never said that Canadians will ever do as I described. The fight is uphill all the way. To believe otherwise is foolishness.

Obviously the media won't cover them, they're owned.

Then again, Gandhi faced the same and worse in his efforts to achieve an India free of colonial rule.

In Canada's case instead of being British, our masters are American.

“”Why is that canadians duty? We have no power to impact Ottawa, we don't even have the power to impact our local municipal government. Yet its OUR duty to spend endless hours reading all about politics as we watch from the sidelines?””

By the way I read this misanthropically conceived missive it only one duty to accept the dictates of some higher authority that you have in ignorance (look the word up) chosen to “rule” you

“”The above is a perfect example of what politics means in Canada-endless arguments about hypothetical scenarios. What should the NDP do, what should the liberals do? Will they? Won't they? And its supposed to be our DUTY to take part in that?””

If this is your idea of what it means to be informed on who, how and why the need for an elected administrative branch is put in place to manage, then my friend you are not only ill informed who are a fool as well!

“”Rubbish! I've got a living to make, a family to raise, parents to support and bills to pay. “”

Oh you do eh?
And how is that working out for you?
If you are in the same position as the rest of the Canadian work force you are one paycheque away from bankruptcy.

And how much of the paycheque goes to pay down a deficit or “interest on your to death payments for your dwelling.
And if you as an individual happen to gave your self in a better position than your fellows, what of them?

“”I"ve got no time for armchair politicking.””

Yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing with your post , you seem to have time to complain.

“”Canadians have NO power over what elected officials do, in more honest places they call that tryranny. It sure as hell isn't my 'duty' to play any part in upholding a constitutional monarchy.””

“”When we have DEMOCRACY, THEN talk about duty. Nobody has any right to say I should support it, let alone that it's my DUTY to support it.””

I see, “When we have DEMOCRACY…” in the meantime You will contribute what a bad attitude ?

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to realise our knowledge is ignorance is a noble thought.
To regard our ignorance as knowledge-
This is mental illness
Lao-Tzo

"Rubbish! I've got a living to make, a family to raise, parents to support and bills to pay. I"ve got no time for armchair politicking."

I have a living to make too. I also understand that if I don't want my job to go overseas I'll have to fight for it.

Convienient, obviously not. Necessary: yes.

I'll have a family to raise shortly myself: I also understand that the actions I do or do not do now will affect my family months and years down the road.

I can't afford to take the chance that everything with go all happily ever after if I stand by and do nothing.

Convienient, again obviously not. necessary: yes.

I have bills to pay too. You think you're something special? You're not."

You're just too lazy to do anything but whine about it.

You want it, you have to be willing to fight for it."

I take it that this diatribe is aimed at me. It shows ignorance and self-righteousness. I have spent years trying to politically educate the public both young and old.

I was stating the realities that political activists must face. Obviously you have not as yet faced it.

It is no wonder that so many people become away from politics when they face this kind of abuse from people who should know better. No one makes friends with this kind of vinegar but they sure make lots of enemies!!!!! Think before you again go on a rant like this.

More sticks, more stones. What exactly are the above enthusiasts actually doing that makes the rest of us 'lazy fools'? What pomposity! How much time have you spent in jail from protests? What organizations have you founded? What organizations are you a member of? There is an "action alert" on the left, and the forum is free to advertise ACTIONS people might be taken. So far, I haven't seen ANY from the above posters. Talk is cheap, BS is cheaper. TELLING people not to say anything cynical doesn't make one some kind of activist. People have every right to be cynical and to tell people to go to hell if they have the nerve to tell them it's their "duty" to support a corrupt establishment.

Too bad people are here just to look for a reason to lecture people and feel smug about their own lack of initiative, then maybe they'd follow the suggestion mentioned above and go to the direct democracy link to see HOW to challenge the system. It involves more work than talking down at other canadians.

"Too bad people are here just to look for a reason to lecture people and feel smug about their own lack of initiative, then maybe they'd follow the suggestion mentioned above and go to the direct democracy link to see HOW to challenge the system. It involves more work than talking down at other canadians."

Look in the mirror.

Just because most of us have taken a different direction than you want us to take does not mean that we have not taken initiative. The fact that we do not all select the same direction does not make what we do less valid.

You cannot intimidate thinking people into conformity.

You don't get it at all.

And oh yes, I have faced it. I've been spit on by those who disagree, had rocks thrown at my home, been shoved by those who tried to use intimidation to make me back down.

Don't presume to lecture me on what I've been through.