The HBO Series, Game of Thrones
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Thanos @ Tue May 21, 2019 5:05 pm
llama66 llama66:
When John killed Danny, why didn't he be like "Bitch, I'm Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhegar Targaryen. I am the true king of the Seven Kingdoms" to Grey Worm.
But I was happy to see John finally pet Ghost. That made me happy. Maybe John becomes the new King over the Wall, and maybe he'll rebuild Hardhome.
But I was happy to see John finally pet Ghost. That made me happy. Maybe John becomes the new King over the Wall, and maybe he'll rebuild Hardhome.
The Unsullied were loyal to Dany only as their liberator. They didn't give a damn at all about the Targaryen name.
Jon refusing the throne was the second part, after Dany obliterated the game-board altogether, in permanently smashing the dynastic system. Tyrells gone. Lannisters effectively gone. Baratheons effectively gone. Ironborn too few in number and too disliked by the others to ever rule. Dorne and the North simply wanting all the others to leave them the fuck alone. The Targaryen legacy in terms of a ruling state essentially vanished altogether when Jon killed Dany.
Jon being exiled to the Wall then quietly disappearing with the Wildlings was terrific. When he was with them he was happiest, which he deserved to have happen again after all the effort and good he'd done. He was also quite alarmed of his Targaryen blood potentially making him go insane later in life just as had happened to Dany. By vanishing into the wild his bloodline will either go extinct or, if he has children, be watered down until it's harmless because as a group the Wildlings were simply unaccepting of any of that dynastic bullshit that had turned the entire continent south of the Wall into a charnel pit.
BeaverFever @ Tue May 21, 2019 8:05 pm
So basically the new king of westeros and nee constitution of westeros were decided by like 5 people in the span of about 2 minutes of conversation, after one guy just throwing it out there and everybody else basically agreed on the spot, nobody’s writing anything down or wants time to think about it ?
And Sansa’s basically like ‘but my brother can’t even get an erection’! How does she know? Did Bran tell her that? He barely says anything these days, he just sits there shooting creepy looks at people but he made a point of telling her about his erectile dysfunction? Do you think he looked her right in the eyes when he did it?
And then when Sansa agrees to crown Bran with the condition that the North will secede from the 7 kingdoms, how come none of the other lords are like “oh me too I also want to be independent I didn’t know we could ask for that now”. And none of them turn to to Sansa and say “hey listen bitch if you’re gonna secede the iron throne then you don’t get to still vote for your fucking brother to be the king of the rest of us”
And the Unsullied suddenly go from wanting John and Tyrion’s heads on sticks to being totally ok with letting them both go? Do they even know what the Nights Watch is? Once they give up control of the city and sail away they really aren’t going to be able to come back if Jon decides to leave the Watch.
And what’s with Bronn suddenly becoming the Master of Coin? When we last saw him he was threatening to assasinate Jamie and Tyrion unless they made him a better offer than Cersei and wasn’t even very friendly about it, doubtful they’d make him masters of coin. Meanwhile Sam is the Arch Maester despite leaving the citadel after only a brief period. As I understand it, one only becomes a Maester after decades of study. He’s basically a kid who dropped out of college in his first semester and he’s the head maester of the highest office in the land. Who’s appointing these grossly unqualified people, Donald Trump? This doesn’t look like “breaking the wheel”, this is rewarding insiders and cronies with patronage appointments for which they’ unqualified.
And let me get this straight: Bran knew about the hundreds of thousands of civilians who would be massacred in kings landing well before, but said nothing so that he could become king? Is that supposed to be a good thing?
xerxes @ Tue May 21, 2019 9:03 pm
The only questions I have after this are:
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
Thanos @ Tue May 21, 2019 9:33 pm
xerxes xerxes:
The only questions I have after this are:
When are the books coming out?
When are the books coming out?
No idea, but a good bet to place would be never. I don't think Martin knows how to finish them as the world he created has gotten so huge and complex.
$1:
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
Binge-watch the old stuff you like. Until Watchmen comes out I don't know what HBO has to offer. The emphasis they're now placing on some show about horny & drugged-out teens in the ecstasy/rave club scene seems distinctly unappealing.
I actually began doing GOT again from the beginning. All the signs really were there that Dany was going to be a mega-heel but I guess I didn't want to believe them because I got too fond of a wee girl who'd been badly brutalized by too many others and who could perform miracles. She openly said to Jorah that she did NOT have the gentle heart he thought she had, and her impatience with getting around to what she'd already begun to see as her destiny was apparent in her trying to get Khal Drogo to invade Westeros. Viserys really was a completely ridiculous twit but he was the only brake on her ambition and when Drogo killed him the main impediment to her ascension was gone. Like Tyrion said to Jon, Dany killing off as many genuinely evil people as she could, combined with the sexist society and world repeatedly underestimating her, led basically all of them to presume that she would never be like her insane father. No one really figured it out until they went north with her forces and Sansa saw through her almost immediately.
DrCaleb @ Wed May 22, 2019 5:50 am
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
So basically . . . Is that supposed to be a good thing?
So now you understand why I think it was the worst finale since Dexter. Not as bad as some shows that end on a cliffhanger, then are cancelled. But shows that are written terribly, and end on a huge inrush of air known as 'the suck'.
Thanos @ Wed May 22, 2019 12:38 pm
Well, all of you are wrong, and you'll have to live with the stain of your wrongness for the rest of your lives. 
Bye, Dany. It was awesome while it lasted!
BRAH @ Wed May 22, 2019 7:19 pm
xerxes xerxes:
The only questions I have after this are:
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
Billions is still on, Fear of The Walking Dead starts soon and Veep deserved a better ending like GOT did.
Dragontail69 @ Wed May 22, 2019 8:15 pm
Poor ending, last two episodes were crud and so against character.
North won't bend the knee to her own brother? How many others would have backed out then? Also would have asked them to remove themselves from the Council as they did not want to be part of it.
No way she would have used her dragon to wipe out woman and children. Then killing soldiers that surrendered.....
Nope classless ending. Where I would have bought the series and recommended it to those that have not watched it, with that ending it seems like a waste.... What was one of the best shows on TV will now fade away as a wasted effort.
xerxes @ Wed May 22, 2019 9:05 pm
BRAH BRAH:
xerxes xerxes:
The only questions I have after this are:
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
Billions is still on, Fear of The Walking Dead starts soon and Veep deserved a better ending like GOT did.
I thought Veep had a great ending. I had fully expected Selina to somehow be the VP again and come full circle.
Also I stopped watching either of the Walking Dead’s two seasons ago. I just couldn’t care anymore.
Thanos @ Wed May 22, 2019 9:22 pm
I recommend doing a binge-watch of Walking Dead for at least one season. By treating it as a single long movie instead of a TV show interrupted by commercials, a week between episodes, and a half-way break it becomes something altogether different. I found that the criticisms I had, like joining in on the Lori-hate, disappeared due to binging. Other things that I found maddening because I'd forgotten why the characters did something pretty much went away as irritants altogether. It seems watching anything this way lets the viewer absorb more of the important episode-to-episode details that often get forgotten because of the weekly gap between eps.
Netflix has all the TWD episodes up to season eight. They don't have FTWD yet but for the most part that one isn't worth watching a second time around anyway though.
BRAH @ Thu May 23, 2019 4:28 am
xerxes xerxes:
BRAH BRAH:
xerxes xerxes:
The only questions I have after this are:
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
When are the books coming out?
What do I watch on Sunday nights now? Especially since Veep has its series finale last week as well.
Billions is still on, Fear of The Walking Dead starts soon and Veep deserved a better ending like GOT did.
I thought Veep had a great ending. I had fully expected Selina to somehow be the VP again and come full circle.
Also I stopped watching either of the Walking Dead’s two seasons ago. I just couldn’t care anymore.
Selina deserved a better closure instead of the 24 years later ending. Trailers for Fear the Walking Dead look like it might be better, maybe it’s time to check out Netflix.
DrCaleb @ Thu May 23, 2019 5:42 am
xerxes xerxes:
Also I stopped watching either of the Walking Dead’s two seasons ago. I just couldn’t care anymore.
^^
I didn't get past the first season of 'Fear'.
Thanos Thanos:
I recommend doing a binge-watch of Walking Dead for at least one season. By treating it as a single long movie instead of a TV show interrupted by commercials, a week between episodes, and a half-way break it becomes something altogether different.
I did that with the last season, and I have this past season ready to go. But I just can't seem to care. I'd rather watch 'Altered Carbon' for the 5th time, than new Walking Dead. (Because Martha Hidalgo)
![[drool]](./images/smilies/droolies.GIF "Drool")
.
Thanos @ Thu May 23, 2019 4:30 pm
Battlestar Galactica's Ronald D. Moore on dealing with fallout from fans that will never be happy no matter how a show ends:
https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/game- ... rview.html
$1:
When you started to see the reactions go in both directions, were you surprised at some of the vehemence there?
I was surprised a little bit with the vehemence of it. I was a Star Trek fan before I joined Star Trek, so I had been around fandom for a very long time, and there was always a certain viciousness within the fan circles. Only the true believers can be vicious. There’s always part of fandom that thinks, “We know better than the people that run the show!” You’re always hopeful, so when the finale came out, you want everyone to love it. Even though part of your rational brain goes, “Yeah, some people ain’t gonna like this,” when they don’t, and they’re really angry about it, it does hurt. It’s hard not to feel it. But, you know, I still look at the piece, or I did at the time and went, “I love it. I think it’s great. And I don’t care if they’re angry about it.”
Is there something about genre fandom in particular that nourishes those extreme reactions? One of the first pieces that came up when I searched for online reactions was a blog post calling Battlestar’s finale “the worst ending in the history of on-screen science fiction.” Which is almost a compliment.
We’re No. 1! Yeah, I don’t know what it is about genre. You could say that genre fandom is the biggest fandom, and maybe that’s the root of a lot of it. I’m not sure what the fandom is for Law and Order or NCIS. I’m sure there is one, but for genre it’s definitely something people care about so passionately, and it’s very personal. You go to conventions, or you go to fan gatherings, and people really love these characters from all these shows. And they take it very personally, they see themselves in it. They have their fantasies, their wish-fulfillments wrapped up in it, and when it goes sideways for them, and it goes to places that upset them, they take it very, very personally, and they get very passionate about it.
So have you followed the reactions to the Game of Thrones finale?
A little bit, yes. I watched and scanned through the media recaps and reactions. It was sort of predictable. I thought, going into it, people were going to hate it. They were just primed to freak out about it in various ways—and primed to enjoy the fact that they were angry about it. So none of it surprised me. Personally, I thought it was great. And you can quote me. I was very satisfied as a viewer. I thought it was the perfect ending to all those characters and I thought that it made sense in the arc of what they had been doing. When you’re doing a finale for a show, you’re thinking about it at least a year previous. At the minimum, the final season is dominated by the thought about what’s the endgame, how are we moving characters and story to get to this particular endpoint? Nothing that happened in the finale of Game of Thrones was not thought out, was not discussed, was not part of George Martin’s universe. It was all very carefully laid out, and it felt to me like it was all consistent with pretty much everything they had been doing.
That reaction is so immediate and can be so loud, and people have an expectation that they’ll be heard. But you’re dealing in most cases with material that was written and shot a year before it airs. There’s this weird sense of “Well, we’ve been complaining about this all week. Why didn’t you do something about it?”
I was over in post-production just yesterday on the show I’m working on now, and somebody said, “Someone posted this whole thing about how there’s a theory out there in fandom that that shot of Jon Snow petting Ghost in the finale was something they put in because people were so upset that the week before he didn’t pet the dog. So they must’ve scrambled and gotten visual effects and put that shot in just to satisfy people.” Which is so insane. If you know anything about television production, there’s not even the remotest chance that that’s true. But people don’t realize how long it takes to do these things, and the effort, and the planning. When they’re talking about an episode online, we’re working on the next season’s stuff. We’re a full year ahead of them. There’s no way anything they say can influence anything that they’re watching.
Let me end with this. If they have sobered up and come near the internet, do you have any words for David Benioff and Dan Weiss at this point?
Just keep your head up. I think they created and produced one of the greatest television shows of all time. And that will be the hallmark of the achievement. I think grousing about the finale will fade, and as time goes on, people will go back and see the show for the first time, years from now who have never experienced it, and I don’t think they’re going to think, “Oh my God that’s not the ending I wanted.” I think they’ll go, “Oh, well, that makes sense.” I think it will satisfy people. As a writer and a creator, that’s really all that you want. You just want to satisfy the audience, and you want to feel like we did our very best and we stuck the landing, as they say. And I think they did. I think they did a really good job.
I was surprised a little bit with the vehemence of it. I was a Star Trek fan before I joined Star Trek, so I had been around fandom for a very long time, and there was always a certain viciousness within the fan circles. Only the true believers can be vicious. There’s always part of fandom that thinks, “We know better than the people that run the show!” You’re always hopeful, so when the finale came out, you want everyone to love it. Even though part of your rational brain goes, “Yeah, some people ain’t gonna like this,” when they don’t, and they’re really angry about it, it does hurt. It’s hard not to feel it. But, you know, I still look at the piece, or I did at the time and went, “I love it. I think it’s great. And I don’t care if they’re angry about it.”
Is there something about genre fandom in particular that nourishes those extreme reactions? One of the first pieces that came up when I searched for online reactions was a blog post calling Battlestar’s finale “the worst ending in the history of on-screen science fiction.” Which is almost a compliment.
We’re No. 1! Yeah, I don’t know what it is about genre. You could say that genre fandom is the biggest fandom, and maybe that’s the root of a lot of it. I’m not sure what the fandom is for Law and Order or NCIS. I’m sure there is one, but for genre it’s definitely something people care about so passionately, and it’s very personal. You go to conventions, or you go to fan gatherings, and people really love these characters from all these shows. And they take it very personally, they see themselves in it. They have their fantasies, their wish-fulfillments wrapped up in it, and when it goes sideways for them, and it goes to places that upset them, they take it very, very personally, and they get very passionate about it.
So have you followed the reactions to the Game of Thrones finale?
A little bit, yes. I watched and scanned through the media recaps and reactions. It was sort of predictable. I thought, going into it, people were going to hate it. They were just primed to freak out about it in various ways—and primed to enjoy the fact that they were angry about it. So none of it surprised me. Personally, I thought it was great. And you can quote me. I was very satisfied as a viewer. I thought it was the perfect ending to all those characters and I thought that it made sense in the arc of what they had been doing. When you’re doing a finale for a show, you’re thinking about it at least a year previous. At the minimum, the final season is dominated by the thought about what’s the endgame, how are we moving characters and story to get to this particular endpoint? Nothing that happened in the finale of Game of Thrones was not thought out, was not discussed, was not part of George Martin’s universe. It was all very carefully laid out, and it felt to me like it was all consistent with pretty much everything they had been doing.
That reaction is so immediate and can be so loud, and people have an expectation that they’ll be heard. But you’re dealing in most cases with material that was written and shot a year before it airs. There’s this weird sense of “Well, we’ve been complaining about this all week. Why didn’t you do something about it?”
I was over in post-production just yesterday on the show I’m working on now, and somebody said, “Someone posted this whole thing about how there’s a theory out there in fandom that that shot of Jon Snow petting Ghost in the finale was something they put in because people were so upset that the week before he didn’t pet the dog. So they must’ve scrambled and gotten visual effects and put that shot in just to satisfy people.” Which is so insane. If you know anything about television production, there’s not even the remotest chance that that’s true. But people don’t realize how long it takes to do these things, and the effort, and the planning. When they’re talking about an episode online, we’re working on the next season’s stuff. We’re a full year ahead of them. There’s no way anything they say can influence anything that they’re watching.
Let me end with this. If they have sobered up and come near the internet, do you have any words for David Benioff and Dan Weiss at this point?
Just keep your head up. I think they created and produced one of the greatest television shows of all time. And that will be the hallmark of the achievement. I think grousing about the finale will fade, and as time goes on, people will go back and see the show for the first time, years from now who have never experienced it, and I don’t think they’re going to think, “Oh my God that’s not the ending I wanted.” I think they’ll go, “Oh, well, that makes sense.” I think it will satisfy people. As a writer and a creator, that’s really all that you want. You just want to satisfy the audience, and you want to feel like we did our very best and we stuck the landing, as they say. And I think they did. I think they did a really good job.
Reminders:
- "fan" is short for fanatic
- you try to give the fans something satisfying but you certainly don't wreck your own creative or artistic vision for them
- too many fans are just assholes who are never happy with anything anyway
- angry genre nerd fans are the worst assholes imaginable
- for the sake of their sanity it's best for producers, writers, and actors to ignore most of the fans altogether and not let the maniacs get to them
DrCaleb @ Fri May 24, 2019 5:28 am
Thanos Thanos:
Battlestar Galactica's Ronald D. Moore on dealing with fallout from fans that will never be happy no matter how a show ends:
Except, he's wrong. Many shows run their course, and end in a way the fans accept. Ways that in in keeping with the fans expectations, but also with the characters the writers developed. 'The Wire', 'Longmire', 'Breaking Bad'. These are recent shows that I recall fans agree ended well and in character as developed by the writers. Fans didn't like that they ended. but they still didn't hate the endings.
A 'Romeo and Juliet' ending is tragic, but Juliet first doesn't go insane out of the blue and kill everyone in Genoa with her pet dragon so that Romeo feels the need to stab her to death to protect the rest of the world. It doesn't fit the 'just and pure' image of Juliet the writers spent 10 years grooming.
Just my 2 cents.
N_Fiddledog @ Fri May 24, 2019 8:36 am
I used to think I'd re-watch old seasons but after this mess of a final season they've ruined the whole series for me. I no longer feel the characters as believable.
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