Canada Kicks Ass
- In an effort to keep Quebec in the country -

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Numure @ Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:14 pm

hwacker hwacker:
Canadaka Canadaka:
i kind of agree with the people who say "lte them go" but then again i think i dont agree stronger. Because there are approx 50% of quebec whom don't want to seperate, are we to abandon these people?

I also do fear that the seperation could lead us down a dangerous road of the breakup of the rest of the country, you can't deny it is a risk. And with that risk we become much easyer to become the 52nd - 66th states.

I beleive it is in our best interests to fight to keep Quebef part of Canada, but not the way they are now, because I do agree and am mad about the special treatment Quebec gets. Maybe if the federal government played hardball instead of bending over backward.


Do I hear a hint of support for Harper?

It must be all the Christmas cheer I have consumed.


The thing this thread started on is a proposition by Harper himself.

   



Poisson @ Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:54 pm

maple_leaf1 maple_leaf1:
Canada is my country. And I'm a proud Canadian. Like 50% of Quebec residents. And I don't beleive you can seperate a country based on a half and half basis....

50% is too blurry. For Québec's voting population, we have 30%-35% hardcore separatists, and then we have 30%-35% hardcore federalists. The rest are just stuck in the middle that can swing to any sides.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:
They have their own Immigration Dept to ensure just French speakers get in.

Bullshit. Go to Montréal and you'll find immigrants that cannot speak French very well. I'm an immigrant and my first language is not French. Québec is not stupid considering that its population will shrink in few decades, it needs immigrants. We have 40,000-50,000 immigrants coming to the province each year and not all of them are French-speakers.

$1:
Check out the uniforms their cops wear, they couldn't be more different than cops in the rest of Canada.

*sarcasm*Better than looking like this*sarcasm*

http://www.nlpubls.com/alaska/29_royal_ ... police.jpg

$1:
The licence plates look like they are from some weird Euro country not Canada.

Euro plates are long, slim rectangle. Québec plates are short, fatter rectangle, like the rest of North America. Surely I do not need to tell you that. :o

TheGup TheGup:
The whole seperation prospect has really embarrassed the rest of Canada. How can 3.7 million people make around 25 million bend over and listen to their every demand?

Actually, it's 7.6 million. Canada is 32.2 million.

$1:
Quebec must not be allowed to take its present territory with it. It can revert to its size in 1867, and the rest of Canada would stop paying for a Province that is essentially now independent.

Canada gave that land to Québec, therefore Québec should keep it. Otherwise, then Canada should pay for all of the hydrodams all over the northern part of the province. The dams are ours, not Canada!

maple_leaf1 maple_leaf1:
Quebec belongs to EVERY CANADIAN CITIZEN.

Fair enough, since Québec is still part of Canada. But the Québécois have the right to decide their own province's future!

And I still wonder why the blue-white flag? A few people have been asking you this, and you still haven't answered. Perhaps it's a hidden agenda that all federalists have. :o

   



DerbyX @ Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:29 pm

$1:
50% is too blurry. For Québec's voting population, we have 30%-35% hardcore separatists, and then we have 30%-35% hardcore federalists. The rest are just stuck in the middle that can swing to any sides.


You will find that the majority of those "swing votes" are immigrants and people who simply want more provincial autonomy. The major fact is that "true seperation" support is just as you said, 30-35%.

$1:
Bullshit. Go to Montréal and you'll find immigrants that cannot speak French very well. I'm an immigrant and my first language is not French. Québec is not stupid considering that its population will shrink in few decades, it needs immigrants. We have 40,000-50,000 immigrants coming to the province each year and not all of them are French-speakers.


The vast majority of those immigrants are "immigrating to Canada" and not "Quebec". They settle in Montreal because of its diverse ethnic reputation, the very diversity that the seperatists are fighting even if they won't admit it.

$1:
Actually, it's 7.6 million. Canada is 32.2 million.


His stat probably only took into account the seperatist factions.

$1:
Canada gave that land to Québec, therefore Québec should keep it. Otherwise, then Canada should pay for all of the hydrodams all over the northern part of the province. The dams are ours, not Canada!


Wrong. Quebec gained it over time on the premise they would be a faithful partner in confederation and it should be pointed out that the vast majority of that territory is actually native owned. Regardless, if some people in Quebec wish to break the original contract of confederation then the absolute most territory you can expect is that prior to 1876. As for all the hydro dams well they were built by just as many federalists as seperatists if not more. They do not belong to a "seperate Quebec".

$1:
Fair enough, since Québec is still part of Canada. But the Québécois have the right to decide their own province's future!


How arrogant. You seperatists continually state that "only quebeckers may decide" yet continualy state that no group within quebec may decide to remain with Canada in the event of seperation. You also erroneous state that Canada must let you use our currency, that no true borders will be set up and a ton of other conditions that you say will exist between Canada and a seperate quebec without any knowledge of how we will deal with a seperate quebec. Are you in for a surprise.

   



EyeBrock @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:13 am

Ok, Mr Fish,

http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.c ... grate.html

A whole Quebec Govt Dept devoted to, hey, imigrating to QUEBEC, not Canada.

The licence plates in Quebec do not look like any others in N America. The font is distinctly Froggy looking.
Ever been to any European countries? They have licence plates of all shapes and sizes, the Quebec ones would fit in nicely. Isn't that the whole idea of much of the things done in Quebec? To ensure every man and his dog know's you are "diverse"?

No comment on the glorious war record of Quebec? Didn't think so.


And I think I prefer the RCMP uniforms to the Surete or MUP. Sorry, they look like airline stewards or park wardens.

If you hate us so much, sod off.

   



Canadaka @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:14 am

so looks like the problem will solve itself! we just have to stall the seperatists for another decade or so and there will be such a large immigrant and possibly not even french speaking population they could never seperate :P

Doesn't matter its happening anyway all over. Even more reason to keep a strong unified contry.


Hwacker why do you always have to be such an ass, i have little respect for you because of it.

What I am not allowed to agree with something a conservative or harper himself might say? of course i can and have, doesn't mean i'm going to support his whole platform or vote for him.

   



Bodah @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:08 am

Canadaka Canadaka:
i kind of agree with the people who say "lte them go" but then again i think i dont agree stronger. Because there are approx 50% of quebec whom don't want to seperate, are we to abandon these people?.


They wouldn't be abandon if they want to stay in Canada, the provinced would be partitioned. These people might have to move but they wouldn't be abandoned. I might be one of them and wouldn't have a problem with moving if ment stability for my country.

Canadaka Canadaka:
I also do fear that the seperation could lead us down a dangerous road of the breakup of the rest of the country, you can't deny it is a risk. And with that risk we become much easyer to become the 52nd - 66th states.


It wont be the end of the world if Quebec goes. I guarantee it. We have a government thats so centralized whos only concern seem to be about Quebec. If we keep on going down this current road. This is a guranteed recipe for disaster, notice the support for western separation lately?

We need politicians that will go to Quebec and say to them once and for all do you want to be a part of Canada? if they say no. Fine help them become independent. If they say yes, kick the bloc out of parliment and lets get on with it. Quebec has become that kid in the grocery store that when it throws a fit, the parent (Canada) gives them anything they want just to silence them. Its time to stop this bullshit.


Canadaka Canadaka:
I beleive it is in our best interests to fight to keep Quebef part of Canada


Unless we change the way we deal with Quebec, I dont.

   



Bodah @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 am

maple_leaf1 maple_leaf1:
I have one....my dad has one....two of my neighbours have one....I don't see ONE Quebec flag in or near my neighborhood except on Quebec's St-Jean-Baptiste day....which in fact isn't even really Quebec's day...it's every french-Canadian's day.


Je fais beacoup du voyage en l'autour de Gatineau, je n'ai jamais vu un drapeau Canadien. Mais je vois beacoup drapeau de Quebec. Et vous avez vu 4 drapeau Canadiene, wow!!!! .

Maple Leaf purquoi votre drapeau Canadiene est blue et blanc?

   



michou @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:59 am

In reality, Québec is already separate within Canada. Canada has never spoken with one voice and never will.
I think the majority of you need some background information on the subject. According to Canada's past treaties its provincies, ANY province could choose to do as Québec does in regards to international matters. Another proof that Québec has always, still is and will always be it's own nation. Canada IS a two nation state and no amount of Québec bashing will ever change that reality.
Below, you will find information on the subject, copied straigth from Québec's official government site.
------------------------------------------------------

Foundations of Québec's international involvement

In order to ensure Québec's development, the Government of Québec has for a number of years reinforced its domestic efforts by foreign initiatives, particularly in areas such as immigration, export promotion, investment prospecting and tourism development.

Globalization means that the number of areas in which foreign interaction has an impact on state responsibility is growing. The scope of the legislative authority of the Government of Québec, as a federated entity, is very broad, and there are hence numerous reasons for active involvement. In certain areas, such as social security and international adoption, governments are the only bodies empowered to take action to meet the needs of citizens and society in general. This responsibility means that the state ? i.e., the Government of Québec in the case at hand ? is obliged to intervene and to provide certain guarantees. This is the origin of the numerous international agreements between the Government of Québec and foreign governments.

Legal foundations

Contrary to a widespread misconception in Canada, foreign policy is not the exclusive responsibility of a specific level of government. The provisions of the Constitution Act, 1867 make no mention of the assignment of legislative authority for foreign relations to either the federal government or the provincial governments.

One should keep in mind that Canadian sovereignty was established gradually. It is the result of changes over time in Canada's relations with the United Kingdom and recognition of Canada by other states. Although Canada has been technically independent since 1931 by virtue of the Statute of Westminster (a British statute concerning former British colonies), Canada's foreign policy has been truly independent from that decided by London only since 1945. qu'à partir de 1945.

Treaties

Canadian and Québec public law make a distinction between making treaties (i.e., negotiating, signing and, where applicable, ratifying treaties), and implementing treaties (i.e., deploying the necessary measures to give effect to treaties). Making treaties is an executive act, whereas implementing treaties, if they require changes to domestic law, is a matter of legislative authority. In other words, legislative action is required for a treaty to be put into effect. In legal terms this is referred to as a dual system.

Canada, like all other federations, is faced by a classic dilemma: in the case of international agreements signed by the federal government in areas under the authority of the provinces, can the federal government legislate in the place of the provinces? The answer to this question lies in domestic, not international law. History, law and the courts have shaped the answer to this question in Canada.

When the Government of the Great Britain created the modern Canadian federation in 1867, it kept the exclusive right to enter into treaties affecting Canada. The federal Parliament of Canada was empowered to implement these treaties (referred to as "empire" treaties) even if they involved areas under provincial jurisdiction (section 132 of the Constitution Act, 1867). Further to the acquisition of its full international personality and the signing of its first treaties, the federal government maintained that it had the exclusive power to implement treaties signed by Canada, regardless of the breakdown of federal and provincial areas of jurisdiction. The federal government thus claimed that section 132 of the Constitution applied not only to the implementation of empire treaties, but also to treaties signed by Canada.

In 1937, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London was still the final court of appeal for Canada. In the Labour Conventions Case (1937, A.C. 326), it ruled that the competency for implementing treaties entered into by Canada belonged either to the Parliament of Canada or to the provincial legislative assemblies (e.g., the Legislative Assembly of Québec, since renamed the National Assembly), depending on whether the subject covered by the treaty fell under federal or provincial jurisdiction by virtue of the British North America Act (now called the Constitution Act, 1867).

This ruling was followed by others. This series of court rulings has established that the making of a treaty by the federal government in an area of exclusive provincial jurisdiction does not mean that this area of jurisdiction no longer falls under provincial competency. Provincial legislation is still required to give effect to such treaties, and the provincial governments are under no obligation to enact such legislation.

Gérin-Lajoie doctrine

These rulings, particularly the 1937 ruling, are the basis of what has since come to be known as the "Gérin-Lajoie doctrine." This doctrine is based on the following principle:

In areas in which the Government of Québec is the only government empowered to keep a commitment, it is normal that such commitment be made by the Government of Québec and that any foreign agreement in this area be made by the Government of Québec.

In short, Québec is responsible for the international extension of its domestic areas of jurisdiction. This doctrine was expressed for the first time on April 12, 1965, in a speech by Paul Gérin-Lajoie, Deputy Premier and Minister of Education, before the members of the Montréal consular corps.

Following the change in government in the wake of the 1966 Québec general election, the new government solemnly confirmed the political legitimacy of the Gérin-Lajoie doctrine and the legal foundations of Québec's international involvement. This position was further confirmed by a debate on April 13, 1967, in the Legislative Assembly (today's National Assembly) leading up to the unanimous adoption of an act creating the Ministère des Affaires intergouvernementales.

All subsequent Québec governments have adopted this same line of thought and have worked to endow Québec with a structure for international relations.

Foreign representation

Under subparagraph 4 of section 92 of the Constitution Act, 1867, the Canadian provinces are empowered to establish and maintain administrative offices and services related to their areas of jurisdiction, and to appoint public servants to head them. In an official document published in 1968 entitled Federalism and International Relations, the federal government clearly recognized the provincial governments' right to maintain offices in other countries and to appoint representatives to deal with issues of provincial interest, essentially in the private sector (page 42 of the French version).

Two well-known Canadian legal experts, Armand L.C. de Mestral, professor at the McGill University Faculty of Law, and Sharon A. Williams, professor at York University's Osgoode Hall Law School, argue in their work An introduction to International Law (Chiefly as Interpreted and Applied in Canada) (2nd edition, Toronto: Butterworths, 1987) that the Canadian provinces have to be able to exercise their constitutional powers, and that it therefore appears arbitrary and highly unpractical to refuse them any international dimension for the exercise of these powers. The authors go on to say that few governmental actions at either the executive or legislative level are devoid of international impact in today's increasingly interdependent world, and that local governments that are active in the cultural, social and economic spheres are understandably irritated by the obligation to go through the central government for all contacts with foreign governments. (See page 46 of the French translation of the first edition, Introduction au droit international public, Toronto: Butterworths, 1982).

Québec's network of foreign offices bears witness to the government's commitment to exercising its constitutional powers.

Agreements between the Government of Québec and the Government of Canada

In certain cases, Québec's foreign involvement is covered by an agreement between the Government of Québec and the Government of Canada. Various agreements have been signed in the area of immigration, for example. Under these agreements, Québec sets its own selection criteria and decides which independent immigrants it wants to welcome. Québec officials may also work out of facilities located in federal government offices abroad.

In the area of multilateral relations, Québec has signed the charter of the Agence intergouvernementale de la Francophonie (AIF, formerly known as the Agence de coopération culturelle et technique). Under a protocol signed with the federal government in 1971, it attends meetings of the member-countries of the AIF as a "participating government." The same protocol also sets the terms for Québec's participation in meetings of ministers of the member-countries. Another protocol, signed in 1985 by the Premier of Québec and the Prime Minister of Canada, sets the framework for Québec's participation in summit meetings of heads of state and government of the members of the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie.

   



NetAbuser @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:09 am

Lets just let em go! So long Quebec.

   



Elvis @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:23 am

EyeBrock wrote

$1:
No comment on the glorious war record of Quebec? Didn't think so.


Sure why not 8)

The main reason why so many French Canadien (A that time in history (1914-1918, 1940-1945) that how we called our self) Was for this reason.

At that time in history (Before the quiet revolution) the vast majority of the French speeking people of the province of Québec where exploited by the Anglo (If you folks want to have a feel for what kind of discrimination and flagrant racisism that occure during those time just go and see the movie about Maurice Richard)

So in consequence the French Canadien all has the same reaction when it come to both first world war.

Why in the Hell should we get Kill for our english master???

   



DerbyX @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:02 am

Elvis Elvis:
EyeBrock wrote
$1:
No comment on the glorious war record of Quebec? Didn't think so.


Sure why not 8)

The main reason why so many French Canadien (A that time in history (1914-1918, 1940-1945) that how we called our self) Was for this reason.

At that time in history (Before the quiet revolution) the vast majority of the French speeking people of the province of Québec where exploited by the Anglo (If you folks want to have a feel for what kind of discrimination and flagrant racisism that occure during those time just go and see the movie about Maurice Richard)

So in consequence the French Canadien all has the same reaction when it come to both first world war.

Why in the Hell should we get Kill for our english master???


:roll: exploited by the anglos. Bollocks. The truth was that it was "big buisness" exploiting the resources and the workers and it happened everywhere. While most of the buisnessman were anglos they were mostly American. How about how quebec exploits the natives?

As for WW1 & WW2 both times France was a (gulp) ally. Most especially in WW2 we were doing it to free Europe from Nazi rule and that included your country of france, the same country lead by the most useless of generals, de gaule who was so much of a hinderence to allied efforts they probably thought he was a nazi plant. So after Canadian soldiers (mostly english and the french Canadians who did fight were federalists) helped free his country he came over here many years later with his "vive the quebec libre " BS speech. It was a sick insult cry "free quebec" in a country that freed his own and its a sick insult to Canada to say you are "oppressed" or aren't "free". I look back on my ancestors as people who helped win a war for freedom and helped build a nation (francophones BTW) while you look at yours as "conquered people" and "exploited people" and "people who refused to fight for english master (ie were cowards). That is not a culture worth being proud of. You seperatists are truly a wretched group.

   



PluggyRug @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:07 am

That movie was just about as accurate as Bambi

   



maple_leaf1 @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:13 am

Bodah Bodah:
I ask again Maple Leaf, whats with the blue and white Canadian FLag?

I have a feeling your the type of "Canadian" lets say if you visited the passport office in Calgary and the WWII veteran working as a comissionar there couldn't speak to you in French. You'd file a langauge complaint. Would you?


Again...I believe in the Charter....any Canadian is allowed to speak in either french or english......I speak both....Fluently.

Got a problem with my flag? Deal! I like it. [wedgie]

   



Bodah @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:52 am

^
you'd make a good liberal politician your skilled at avoiding questions.

   



EyeBrock @ Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:18 am

Yes Elvis, you poor exploited french chaps have had it hard for so long.

The whole Nazi thing and ww2 was an Anglo plot to try to force poor oppressed frenchies to join up and die for the King.

Hitler was in on it and committed all his atrocities in a vain attempt to get you lot to fight with us lot.

So, what colour is the sky in your marginalised and oppressive world?

Every body has been plotting against the Quebeckers since the French abandoned you guys in 1759.
I feel your pain.

What will you lot whine about if you ever separate?

Mind you, at least Elvis is transparent. It's the plastic Canadians with blue flags that are really duplicitous. They are the ones to watch.

Hurry up and leave and then maybe we can get on better with you guys, instead of having to pay you out to keep your little tin-pot country going.

Time you did it without our transfer payments, dollar and military.

   



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