Australia to spend $270b building larger military
bootlegga @ Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:23 am
Martin15 Martin15:
bootlegga bootlegga:
That global leadership is what enabled the US to win the Cold War - because it enabled your country the unfettered ability to ship its trade goods across the planet and grow
It let everyone grow, including Russia, China, and Iran.
And no one wanted to help pay for it, everyone just took the free joy ride.
BTW, you should look around and figure out the US % of GDP from int'l trade
is about the lowest of all developed countries.
While the US has been paying for it, they benefit the least frpm it.
Yeah that's why they have the world's largest economy (highest GDP), because they barely benefit from the ability to ship its manufactured goods across the globe.
They may not benefit from the manufacturing side of things, but that was a decision by multi-national corporations, many headquartered in the USA, to move manufacturing to Asia. And those companies and their employees stateside, American shareholders, and Americans with 401Ks all benefit from the easy and safe ability to ship those goods from Asia to North America and Europe.
Try again...
Martin15 Martin15:
$1:
Yes, the rest of of the world, including Canada, needs to step up, but your country is abdicating the role that made it the dominant force for good on the planet over the past 70 years. If you want your country to go the way of Great Britain or Spain, that's your choice I suppose. I know I wouldn't want to see my country decline to second rate status...
Opps, too late. Maybe we could have stopped the free security ride and coughed up some
dough, oh say.. back in the 60's.
The US won't decline by their withdrawal.
If anything, it will make them even stronger.
Again...
Actually, Canada DID cough up shitloads of dough for that very reason until the 1970s, even after that, we spent billions of dollars maintaining half of our Army and Air Force in Germany (along with building/training our Navy for an ASW role in the North Atlantic) for an invasion that never came.
It wasn't until everyone - and I do mean everyone, including the USA - cashed in their 'peace dividend' in the 90s. The US only re-invested heavily in the military because of the 'War on Terror'.
The US can certainly withdraw from the global economy and international sphere, but that will erode their strength over time, not strengthen it. If they go isolationist, their allies will start looking for new allies, which may turn into adversaries (China/Russia), or worse, become a global challengers (like the EU or Japan). After all, there was a time not so long ago when Germany and/or Japan were touted as potential threats to American hegemony. Japan isn't a very likely threat now, but a generally united Europe, yeah they could be a huge economic/political threat to the US in a couple decades if they are abandoned now.
Trade barriers will go up, conflict will increase and gradually the US will get sucked into the conflagration anyways, just like they did in WW2. The difference is instead of going in as the strongest nation on Earth, they'll go in at the same strength, or worse, a notch or two below their major competitors.
Martin15 @ Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 pm
bootlegga bootlegga:
They may not benefit from the manufacturing side of things, but that was a decision by multi-national corporations, many headquartered in the USA, to move manufacturing to Asia. And those companies and their employees stateside, American shareholders, and Americans with 401Ks all benefit from the easy and safe ability to ship those goods from Asia to North America and Europe.
All those jobs can be returned to the US without much trouble. Relatively, of course.
There are lots of countries that will have no chance in the future.
And the low cost stuff can be sent to Mexico and Latin America if needed.
$1:
Actually, Canada DID cough up shitloads of dough for that very reason until the 1970s,
Oh, OK, the 70's then, not the 60's. So 50 years ago instead of 60.
That's fine.
$1:
even after that, we spent billions of dollars maintaining half of our Army and Air Force in Germany (along with building/training our Navy for an ASW role in the North Atlantic) for an invasion that never came.
Hmm lots of blah blah.. When was the last time it was 2% ? The magic 70's again ?
$1:
The US can certainly withdraw from the global economy and international sphere, but that will erode their strength over time, not strengthen it. If they go isolationist, their allies will start looking for new allies, which may turn into adversaries (China/Russia), or worse, become a global challengers (like the EU or Japan). After all, there was a time not so long ago when Germany and/or Japan were touted as potential threats to American hegemony.
This has been going on for a long time.
Clinton said nothing, he was too busy banging interns and trying to be popular.
Bush said little, too busy in Iraq.
Obama said a few things, and got ignored, like most of his foreign policy.
Trump said something, everyone got hysterical, but everyone keeps demanding the US pays for
all global security, even while making that direct pipeline from Russia under the sea.
Yeahhhhh, no.
And does anyone think that Creepy Joe will change anything and become the big globohero ?
No, it transcends blue and red.
$1:
Japan isn't a very likely threat now, but a generally united Europe, yeah they could be a huge economic/political threat to the US in a couple decades if they are abandoned now.
Ok look just admit you don't have the first fucking idea of what is going on in Europe
if you think
A) the EU will stay together
b) people will willingly join an "EU" military to go on military adventures.
$1:
Trade barriers will go up, conflict will increase and gradually the US will get sucked into the conflagration anyways, just like they did in WW2. The difference is instead of going in as the strongest nation on Earth, they'll go in at the same strength, or worse, a notch or two below their major competitors.
Well they tried that. Didn't work out.
Only stupid people keep doing the same things, expecting a different result.
In the meantime, the next 10-20 years are going to be pretty wild.
I would hate to have the Aussies position, having to face off against the Chinese virtually alone. I would be hunting for nukes if I was them.
Only good thing the Chinese can't get past the 'first islands'; for now.
Thanos @ Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:37 pm
Nine out of ten jobs that supposedly are leaving China will end up in Mexico, India, Taiwan, or Sri Lanka. The current right-wing fetish with demonizing the Chinese doesn't end the greater calculus, that those jobs aren't coming back to North America because the company bosses and shareholders still refuse to pay a living wage and provide basic benefits for home-born workers because it cuts into their profits too much. That hasn't changed from when outsourcing began in the 70's, ramped up with the trade deals in the 90's, and gutted what remained of the American manufacturing heartland in the 00's.
Want to bring those jobs back for real? Then bring back serfdom or outright slavery. I imagine there's enough talk of things like that in conservative think-tank circles these days, and probably always has been too. "Why can't the klooges and other disposable types see that we're the only ones who can guide them correctly through their small ridiculous lives?" thinks every rich person ever.
rickc @ Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:51 pm
And yet none of that is stopping Australia from getting off of their collective asses and ACTUALLY spending some real money on their military is it? There is always a reason NOT to do something if you look hard enough. There is always an excuse to not even try, and blame someone else for your own shortcomings.
Thanos @ Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:58 pm
I already said that Australia, and a bunch of others, all have a perfectly good reason to start bulking up because going forward they're probably on their own. It's not like they have much of a choice, not when their supposed "friend" goes insane, starts blaming them over a pack of lies invented inside a deranged brain, and leaves them to the mercies of an enemy that their former friend went out of their way to piss off. By the end of the decade, if not sooner, both Australia and Japan could have defensive nuclear weapons of their own as a result of the stupidity of the last three years.