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This appeared in yesterday's Toronto Star as part of a longer article about the Canadian deployment in Afghanistan.

I hate to admit it, but I fear Mr Ansari is right. This isn't a critique on Canadian soldiers. Individually, I have no doubt they are just as good as their American counterparts.

But it says something about Canadian society's level of commitment and determination when we're now perceived abroad as a "weak" link in the war on Terror.

In 1942, 900+ Canadians died in one morning at Dieppe. That was out of a population of 10 million. Yet the country's commitment to the war against Germany didn't waver. I strongly doubt that would be the case if we suffered even a fraction of that many deaths among our soldier's abroad today.

It seems internationally, we're now the equivilent of the Italian or Romanian armies in World War 2. In the eyes of the Muslim world, only the Brits and Yanks are looked at as having the moral strength to face casualties and stay the course.

I hope I'm proven to be wrong. Because to pull out of Afghanistan simply because we face casulties there would mean that everyone whose given his life in that struggle did so in vain.

   

It would be harper who pulls us out if we do wouldn't it?

At what point do we decide that its up to the indigenous afgani people to take matters into their own hands or should we station troops there for the next 50 years? How about 100?

Nice of you to assume that Canada is "weak" and will pull out in the absence of even a shred of proof.

Just another example of you anti-CDN attitude.

   

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?op= ... c&pid=9996

   

Derby in 2002 it was members of the NDP who called for our withdrawl from Afghanistan after the accidental bombing that killed FOUR of our troops. Lucky for us we didn't have an NDP government!

   

Funny how Canada is always perceived as a weak link yet we've suffered many more casualties in Afghanistan than those brave stalwart US allies the Australians have in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.
Personally I think Canadians (beyond the reactionary anti-military NDP types) will continue to support this and other military missions as long as they're framed in precise terms, "stabilising Afghanistan and preventing the return of the Taliban", its when you start talking in broad undefinable abstract nouns dreamed up by White House PR experts like the "War on Terror" that people will start to get concerned.

   

Its like seeing your doppelganger, whoever you are clear out your cookies

   

That must be why the Yanks wanted one of our light infantry battalions for Iraq...

Perhaps in the eyes of people who know nothing about military affairs, Canada and other middle power NATO nations appear like weaklings, but ask those who've fought with us. I'm sure the Croats we fought at Medak would disagree, as would any Al-Qaeda terrorists who went up against our snipers in Afghanistan. I'd argue our men are as good as they were in WW2.

I would never mistake a politician's weakness for that of a soldier. Just because the Spanish caved after the Madrid bombings is no reason to suspect we would if something similar happened here (or if our troops took a lot of casualties from a suicide attack).

As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer to be underestimated by our enemies, that way when we kick their asses they'll be the ones running for the fucking hills...

   

That accident though trajic I think was just an occupational hazard and those American pilot could have made the same mistake in many jobs with the same or worse consiquences.

   

Arrogance is certainly not lacking within the Taliban or Al-Quida. We've been underestimated before (like Medak, and suprisingly, after that by both sides).

Conversley, I'm not looking forward to finding out how much the hand-wringers have penetrated our national psyche.

   

Icedcap it was me and I have no idea what happened!

   

For anybody who really gives a shit, this was not Icedcaps post but it was mine! Don't really know what happened there!

   

Samuel Adams once wrote;

"Blind patriotism is the chief virtue of the wicked."

Truer words were never spoken Derby.

Just because I have the insight to be critical of my own country and it's attitudes, doesn't make me "anti-Canadian."

Is Michael Moore "Anti-American" for his criticisms of US culture? What about Sean Penn or Jeanine Garofalo for their opposition to US foreign policy?

   

Mr Ansari raises an interesting point worthy of debate - as does Motorcycleboy . I happen to think that they are both wrong. I'm not a Canadian, but here's my two cents. Few things:

1) I remember recently how many in the world, even in Europe, thought of the US as being a 'weak sister'. Not because of a paucity of military strength or because of something lacking in the American soldier, far from it, but because the accepted wisdom was that the American public would not countenance American boys and girls coming home in body bags. The rationale was that any US political leadership which engaged in open-ended foreign adventures (not thinking Grenada or Panama here) which resulted in combat deaths would be toe-capped out of office. The September 11th attacks radically altered that world view as did the 2004 Presidential election. And the fact that the American public continues to support the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan - albeit with some grave misgivings - shows that citizens in democracies realise that to ensure the safety of us all, sometimes we have to put the men and women of our armed forces into harm's way. I see no reason whatsoever why Canadians should lack the same mettle possessed of their neighbours to the south. Far from it - if past experience is anything to go by, Canadians have never been backward at coming forward when it comes to standing up for what they believe to be right.

2) I don't quite understand the comparision between the armies of Italy and Romania in WW2 and the CF today. With a few notable exceptions, the fighting men of Italy and Romania were lacklustre - poorly led at all levels, terribly equipped and badly motivated; newsreel footage of regiments of Italian troops being led into captivity while watched over by a single Tommie with a Lee-Enfield is evidence of this. Whlle CF has endured a decade of anorexic funding, which certainly doesn't help their fighting ability, Canadian men and women in uniform can still be depended on to do their job and to do it bloody well. Motorcycleboy, I'm sure you're not suggesting that Canadian troops won't do their job - I'm just not sure what point you're making with that analogy.

3) The point missed is that of the media. Dieppe was a tragic waste of life - in fact, I think it must stand as maybe the worst foul-up of the Western Allies post 1940. BUT as the German defenders around Dieppe poured fire into the ranks of the Canadian and British troops on the beaches, they weren't thinking about how CNN would cover the event. When the UK Black Watch battlegroup was re-deployed to central Iraq in October 2004, to allow USMC units to deploy to Fallujah, the British media went into meltdown. Lots of how the Brits were pulling the Yanks out of the fire etc (what rot!) And of course, lots about how in the Sunni triangle UK troops would be targetted by insurgents. Insurgents don't all live in caves, they have access to 24 hour news - and they responded to the hyperbole in the British media by attacking the Black Watch in droves. Insurgents figured that one dead private from the Black Watch would be worth two dead US soldiers during that period because of the fuss being made by the British press. (link to comments made by the UK Chief of the Defence Staff about the media's role in the Black Watch redeployment http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4083939.stm)
The Black Watch did a fantastic job, aside from a few rumblings at home the British public didn't clamour for our boys to come home prematurely and UK troops are still in Iraq. So the people of Canada aren't the weak link, the troops of Canada certainly aren't the weak link - but the Canadian media just might be. And all that media weakness will do is to, unfortunately, make Canadian troops more likely to be attacked.


Sorry for such a rambling post!

   

I doubt that considering the Italians were led by incompetant commanders with World War I equipment. Not exactly the case with Canada now is it? I know Canada isn't exactly the first in-line with super technology like the US but your analogy is poor.

Hmm interesting. Are you telling me in the eyes of the Muslims the Americans or the British are percieved as the moral high ground of commitment and strength? Is that why most of the Muslim world chants "death to America" after their noon tea?

In my opinion, the Afghanistans look upon Canadian soldiers as more efficient than their American counterparts and more "cooperative" to the needs of ordinary Afghanistans. Does that make the Canadians better than Americans in Afghanistan? No, but it does say something about the attitudes to Canadians compared to Americans but then again, I suppose the Americans are just morally superior in the face of danger right? Tell that to those Canadian boys sent home in body bags.

   

Yes it is! Every country has people saying they should be "pulling out" It isn't a sigh that we are "weak".

   

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