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Perhaps. I don't happen to agree, but that's not my point. My point is that Christianity, like it or not, is the foundation of modern, western civilization. And, further, and this is debatable but I believe it, Christianity in that capacity has overwhelmingly been a force for good within that civilization, and by extension, throughout the world.

   

Perhaps, but I think it had little to do with converting the "unwashed", and more to do with his belief that the church should speak out against violence, murder and mayhem.

And well they should. It needs to turn its vast assets to helping solve the world's problems, rather than just accruing interest on it's wealth.

   

   

Let's revel in the advances that bread has led us to. Where would we be today without bread? Think of all the wonderful things done by wonderful people who ate bread. Bread must be the foundation of our civilization.

   

Fair enough, I was being a bit pedantic.

By 313AD, the Roman Empire was in full decline. I don't go looking up the internet between posts, so forgive me if I'm off, but I think most historians agree the empire ended about 476 AD (I don't believe in this revisionist "CE" stuff).

In the history of a thousand year empire, the last hundred or two was just the blink of an eye. So the Roman empire ended about the same time Christianity was emerging as the new force to be recokoned with. It took several hundred years, but by the end of the millenium, Charlemagne had come to power and the Church held the most powerful influence of any institution in western civilization.

   

Temper, temper. Just be patient. I've got a slew of comers on this one and I'm arguing as fast as I can.

   

I apologize Motorcycleboy, I deleted it when you posted in a civilized manner.

   

Really? What about the Eastern Roman Empire? Christianity was firmly established there well before the fall of Rome in 476. Remember Justinian I who tried to reconquer the West back from the Pagans?

   

Every advancement has come from something before it. You cannot ignore the massive advancements that have influenced evry other invention.

Who is responsible for modern rock? Led Zeppelin or the Beatles? Or their influences, Elvis? How about Elvis's influences? How about mozarts or Beetovens? Get it?

   

Good point about the Eastern Roman Empire. That part of the Empire was actually more successful than it's western counterpart for quite awhile, and that was under Christianity. That fact actually doesn't reconcile with my argument, and is a weakness in my point which you've nailed, or would sooner or later anyway.

That said, I think you still have to admit that the emergence of Christianity as a major influence, while maybe not being totally responsible for the downfall of Rome, took place in it's absence and filled the vacuum.

   

This comes back to my point. Western Civilization is responsible for modern rock. Without the invention of electricity and mass communications, both advents of western society, those groups never would have been able to ply their trade. And it was western civilization that produced Mozart, Beetovhen etc (both were Christians by the way, and Christian thought played heavily in Mozart's music. Beetovhen's too.)

   

Motorcycleboy, if you said that earlier we wouldnt have had to go on like this. I never said that Christianity wasn't a major influence in Europe, im a History major, I know full well. All I was trying to do was piece together your fragmented facts and question them. However, you seem to think that Christianity was soley after the Roman Empire and it wasn't. The Germanic migrations pushed into Roman territory AND culture. Ever hear about Julian I an Emperor of Rome? he actually tried to reform Paganism as the dominant religion in Rome but was unsuccesful. You must also understand that the Germanic tribes, although not without some Christian influence, replaced the existing Roman government so to say immediatly that Christianity picked up from where the Roman Empire left off is simply wrong. In this, I think our little spat can come to a conclusion with some civility, I don't agree with your methods but I thank you for not pissing in the fire to make it larger.

   

And all of it was based on pre-Xtioan societies all the way back to when cavemen pounded on rocks and drew on walls.

Come to think of it, Xtianity owes its existence to homo sapiens evolving intelligence enough to invent gods and religion.

So you owe everything to our true god, Charles Darwin!

   

Sort of ironic that Charles Darwin was also the ship's chaplain too.

   

Sort of ironic that Charles Darwin was also the ship's chaplain too.

Darwin says of the evolutionistic process, “This grand sequence of events the mind refuses to accept as the result of blind chance. The understanding revolts from such a conclusion.”

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... p0023.html

   

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