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I guess South Africa is trying to atone for it's past mistakes.


But yeah, Israel is far from helpless.



Another side note, it is widely regarded that Israeli Forces and Canadian Forces are the best in the world man for man and pilot for pilot. Israel obviously has the better military though, but at least we're trying.

   

I remember South Africa well, they were believed to have had Israeli help in creating six nukes.

The cozy relationship between Israel and Botha's South Africa has often made me think that the current Palestinian arrangement was based on the bantustans, the make-believe countries which South Africa set up, and deported a large percentage of their black population to. They were all worthless wastelands, but it gave them the ability to deprive the blacks of their citizenship, while keeping them as a work force. Not very different from Palestine, where the permanent "occupied territory" status keeps them in a sort of "enemy combatant" limbo. But I digress.

South Africa abandoned its nuclear program in 1991, and the IAEA verified in 1994 that all of its weapons had been dismantled.

Six nukes that were destroyed more than a decade ago. What a friggin' red herring.

   

You really just yank these things out of you're ass, don't you.
I'm not saying you're wrong but you have nothing to back that up.

The only thing I found was the 2005 maple flag in Cold Lake that had fighters from:
a.. Canadian Forces
b.. Belgian Air Force
c.. German Air Force
d.. French Air Force
e.. Israeli Air Force
f.. NATO AWACS (airborne early warning and control contingent)
g.. Royal Air Force
h.. Royal Netherlands Air Force
i.. Royal New Zealand Air Force
j.. Republic of Singapore Air Force
k.. Swedish Air Force
l.. United States Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps

If you want to run with that and tell us how they did, the link is
here

   

I wouldn't dispute that. But Israel is armed to the teeth for a reason. It has something to do with being surrounded by millions of people whose stated aim is to drive them into the sea.

Israel has no territorial designs on it's neighbours.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip last year. It's reward was the Palestinians used their newly found territory to launch rocket attacks on Israel.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago. The result was rocket attacks and incursions by Hezbollah.

Israel is the only pluralistic democracy in the region.

None of those facts are seriously disputed by anyone.

So how can anyone say Israel's to blame?

   

Are you shitting me? Some pissant attack? There was one which managed to hit a crowded school and even then no one was hurt.

Whats more those rocket attacks only started after ISREAL SHELLED CIVILIANS

june 9th - http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/
June 10th - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5066768.stm

Isreal broke the truce, since they fired first.



The soldiers were directly on the border and it is up to debate which side they were on when they were attacked.



Are you shitting me? Israel treats arabs and muslims as second class citizens, meanwhile just north of them is a democracy which gives equal rights to all of its citizens. In fact it's democracy is structured to maintain a balance between Sunnis, Shiites, and Christians.

   

I didn't mean to blame the "UN" per se. I'm just saying that it is something of a universal political failure. International law, for example (if enforced) would provide us with a number of options to deal with these situations. There is no will to force any international law upon its opponents, however.

   

The UN's problem is the ability of permanent members of the Security Council to veto anything. Dozens of times, when the UN wanted to do something about Palestine, or some other issue related to Israel, the US has vetoed it. That is what is going on right now.
http://www.canadaka.net/link.php?id=9400

So don't say there's no political will to fix things. There is, but it's been vetoed.

   

I'll try and dig up the relevant information.

   

So, they get to keep launching until they hit a crowded school and people are hurt?



Actually no. It started after forces endorsed by Hamas attacked an IDF post.



Debate? After watching this from the start I have seen no one say that IDF were on the Lebonese side of the border. Who is debating this? Hezbollah? Besides, should it not be a problem for the Lebanese gov't and not an outlawed terrorist group to address?




Is Lebanon a democracy? If it is, it ain't doing a world class job at it. The primary job of the gov't in a democracy is defence of the state. They seem to have left that to a terrorist organization.

Israel treats Arabs and Muslims as second class citizens? Like every other citizen of Isreal they have the right to vote and participate in their democracy. How is that second class?

   

Here we go agin. who say's Air Command is the 'best in the world' AM?

Come on, back this up. It's the second time you've made this statement.

Air Command, backing up our troops from Bagotville.

   

Why do you post links "supporting" your point when they do no such thing?

The first report describing the Israeli actions clearly states the IDF was firing on militants responsible for launching rockets into Israeli cities. It also points out that although Hamas has largely abided by a ceasefire since February, there are a number of other groups that have continued attacking Israel over that time.

It also points out that upon hearing of the civilian deaths on the beach, that the IDF suspended all operations and is launching an investigation to determine how it happened.

That suggests to me that Israel takes the killing of arab civilians seriously and is striving to avoid it.

The second report questions whether Israel was even responsible. It poses the possibility that the beach explosion may have been caused by an unexploded shell or a palestinian missile that went awry.

And those are your own links.




You're the only one debating it. The UN Envoy to Lebanon, who can be considered impartial, has condemned Hezbollah for violating Israel's border in that incident.



Israeli Arabs enjoy full citizenship privileges. They have the right to vote, and are protected by the same laws and regulations as all other citizens of Israel. They make up between 15-20 per cent of the Israeli population and have a number of members in the Israeli Parliament. They enjoy more freedom and a higher standard of living than the vast majority of their bretheren in the rest of the Arab world.

So how exactly do you support your inflammatory and baseless claim that Israel treats it's muslims as "second class citizens?"

As for Lebanon, it was involved in a civil war for a decade before it was occupied by Syria for another decade. The Syrian reign was notable for it's brutality and oppression.

Sadly, in the last year, Lebanon was making tremendous gains as Syria pulled out and a new government took power. Unfortunately, Hezbollah has now hijacked the agenda and plunged Lebanon into conflict once again.

You should be directing your anger at Hezbollah, not Israel.

   

Ok Isreal has a heck of a military. Thats been agreed on. Why do they have such a large per capita military? BECAUSE THEY HAVE ENEMIES ON ALL BORDERS.

Sit back and just think for a minute how many times would you let your neighbors say he/she was going to drive you out. Kiddnap your family. Constantly verbaly threaten you. Fire guns into your yard. All of this after you gave up some of your property to appease them. Not to mention that because of simular things over a decade ago you moved into part of your neighbors area because of attacks and had recently moved back out. Would you sit on your arse and do nothing or would you go and kick the snot out of the neighbors. Oh and going to the police is a joke they have show repeatedly that they do not have the ability to maintain peace in these types of situations.

One of your few freinds who knows you can fight says hey I'm not going to interfer with your bussiness, at least for a while. I can understand why your so upset.

You go and kick the tar out of these neighbors of yours. Then they turn around and try to blame you for doing this and half the city blames you also. Why?

Because these fellow citizens of yours just dont seem to understand that when constantly threatened, harrased and attacked you will strike back.

Wow kind of sounds like what Isreal has done. The Plastiniens and Hezbulah(who are admired by the lebonses people) have brought their own missery upon them selfs.

If you think the U.N. could have any influence in this matter then tell me why hezbulah is still armed in direct deviance of U.N. mandate.

Don't blame Isreal for protecting its self and strikeing out after years of provication. More properly you should sit back and admire them for their paitents and endurance under so much hatred and pressue.

   

The two soldiers are a pretext, by Israel's own admission. They had the plans to attack Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon in place a year ago, and were just waiting for an excuse. I'm sure that if Hezbollah had returned them before the attack could begin, Israel would have been absolutely mortified (but would have attacked anyway).
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... IDEAST.TMP

   

If it can hit a crowd of people, and not even wound anyone, the weapon is as effective as some of the more tame fireworks. So yes, in the scheme of things, I think it should be israel which should stop their artillery barrages before we worry about the "rockets" which could potentially poke someones eye out if they are extremely lucky.



No, the attack on the border outpost, which seized Shalit, occured on the 26th, more then two weeks after the incidents I mentioned, or is there something of the slightest provocation that justifies Isreal shelling an innocent family. Maybe someone in Gaza strip made an offensive hand gesture, or threw a rock, surely isreal should bomb them for that.



Debate? After watching this from the start I have seen no one say that IDF were on the Lebonese side of the border. Who is debating this?[/quote]

That attack was directly on the border and was part of recce operations back and forth. There is enough doubt that if we applied the standards used for other hostile borders theres nothing exactly surprising, or near an act of war.



They are the militia in southern lebanon.



Is Lebanon a democracy? If it is, it ain't doing a world class job at it. The primary job of the gov't in a democracy is defence of the state. They seem to have left that to a terrorist organization.[/quote]

Well I suppose Canada is doing a piss-poor job at democracy too, because any time the United States felt like it, we could just walk in and take everything we want. Not to mention all those european states which hardly have armies. Except none of that has anything to do with democracy.



Except to be able to sponsor their relatives to immigrate, barring citizenship to spouses who are from the occupied territories, discrimination, violence... Hell Isreal isn't that far off from Alabama in the 50s.

   

Only because the Lebanese Gov't did not and does not have the political will to disband Hezbollah as they agreed they would when Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000. Ya see Israel lived up to its end of the bargin. I find it especially enlighting that the christian militias lived up to the agreement and disbanded, but the one backed and paid for by Syria and Iran did not.



Adequate defence of their citizens is the ONLY true job of a gov't in a democracy. Canada's defence capabilitys and those of most of Europe are more than adequate when you consider the possible threats. I don't lay awake nights wondering if the 101st is dropping on Ottawa. The Lebanese gov't has allowed a terrorist group to take over in the south. They failed the primary purpose of a gov't.

   

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