Canada Kicks Ass
Who's More At Fault In The Current Middle East Crisis?

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gstang23 @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:16 pm

Sorry, but im not very political. (thats why I tend to stay out of these discussions)

But who does the UN answer too? Ive always thought of them as a self controlled government who really answers to no one. Basically like congress without a checks and balances plan. But in the same way a toothless tiger. Other then voting for sanctions or removing them, I really dont know what they truly do. Kind of like an international punishment group.



Oh and I blame Ramses II for the problems in the middle east. If he wasnt a cruel ruler, the Jewish people may of stayed in Egypt.

   



PluggyRug @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:23 pm

$1:
Oh and I blame Ramses II for the problems in the middle east. If he wasnt a cruel ruler, the Jewish people may of stayed in Egypt.


We need to build a time machine.

   



Wullu @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:28 pm

PluggyRug PluggyRug:
$1:
Oh and I blame Ramses II for the problems in the middle east. If he wasnt a cruel ruler, the Jewish people may of stayed in Egypt.


We need to build a time machine.


Stargate SG1 has one, but that brings up all kinds of paradox questions... :wink:

   



Hardy @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:04 pm

An interesting perspective on the problem, from 2003...

$1:
The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. You can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Travelling on the fast highway that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated. We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below - from the wells of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the people: the time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has arrived. We love the entire land of our forefathers and in some other time we would have wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state - not by means that are humane and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them en masse - or separate ourselves from them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path. We must remove all the settlements - all of them - and draw an internationally recognised border between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian national home. The Jewish law of return will apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply only within the borders of the Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.

The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire and suicide bombers, or a recognised international border between two states and a shared capital in Jerusalem.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price of participating in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces of good lose hope. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position - black or white - is collaborating in the decline. It is not a matter of Labour versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers. What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad - Jewish and non-Jewish alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people - should choose as well. They must reach out and help Israel to navigate the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of peace, justice and equality.


-- Avraham Burg

(Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset in 1999-2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel.)

   



Scape @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:28 pm

gstang23 gstang23:
But who does the UN answer too?


The SC

   



Jaime_Souviens @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:32 pm

Moving, useful.


I suppose I could almost place myself on the same side as this author.

(Almost... I don't feel myself called to making Israel a beacon among nations, but if he wants to, that's cool.)

I think the generational quality to this is right as well.

I remember someone who calculated the following, not as being factual, but just suggestive :

1789 - 1861 72 years. The United States from founding to Civil War.

1917 - 1989 72 years. The Soviet Union from founding to collapse.

By the same token, it would be :

1947 - 2019 ??? for Isreal? Maybe, maybe not.

I guess the point is, it's the first generation that lives under a new regime that makes the most dramatic impact on that regime.

   



Jaime_Souviens @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:35 pm

Scape Scape:
gstang23 gstang23:
But who does the UN answer too?


The SC


The Supreme Council of Scottish Rite Freemasonry?

[align=center]Image[/align]

Scape, you're not supposed to be giving that away!

   



Hardy @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:42 pm

I find passages like this particularly enlightening, not because I think that they are news, but because they come from the mouth of the former Speaker of the Knesset:

$1:
Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture.


So much for that image of how wonderful life is for Arabs in Israel.

   



Scape @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:50 pm

Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
I guess the point is, it's the first generation that lives under a new regime that makes the most dramatic impact on that regime.


Interesting observation.

   



Jaime_Souviens @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:04 pm

Scape Scape:
Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
I guess the point is, it's the first generation that lives under a new regime that makes the most dramatic impact on that regime.


Interesting observation.


I think it's going to happen internationally, this time.

Just insofar as there seems to be a generational split on support for Israel outside the country as well.

It seems that support for Israel is almost universal for Canadians and Americans in their fifties and older, much less so among younger people.

People who remember anything of WWII or the early years of Israel on the one hand, and people who only remember endless strife and body counts on the other.

   



Donny_Brasco @ Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:31 pm

Avro Avro:

You mean the very job that provides me with a six figure income and keeps at home with my family.


Avro buddy,

No one else counts the pennies. 8) ROTFL

   



Motorcycleboy @ Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:19 am

Hardy Hardy:
The two soldiers are a pretext, by Israel's own admission. They had the plans to attack Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon in place a year ago, and were just waiting for an excuse. I'm sure that if Hezbollah had returned them before the attack could begin, Israel would have been absolutely mortified (but would have attacked anyway).
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... IDEAST.TMP


Tin hat conspiracy theories are always fun, to be sure.

But one question.

If it was so obvious to you as an "impartial observer" that things were happening in the Mid-East, then why didn't any of you predict this war a couple of months ago?

   



Hardy @ Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:23 am

And now for some not very well thought out comments...

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:
Hardy Hardy:
The two soldiers are a pretext, by Israel's own admission. They had the plans to attack Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon in place a year ago, and were just waiting for an excuse. I'm sure that if Hezbollah had returned them before the attack could begin, Israel would have been absolutely mortified (but would have attacked anyway).
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... IDEAST.TMP


Tin hat conspiracy theories are always fun, to be sure.

Nothing very tinfoil hat when you have a public admission.

$1:
In the years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.

"Of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared," said Gerald Steinberg, professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University. "In a sense, the preparation began in May 2000, immediately after the Israeli withdrawal, when it became clear the international community was not going to prevent Hezbollah from stockpiling missiles and attacking Israel. By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board."

More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail. Under the ground rules of the briefings, the officer could not be identified.

In his talks, the officer described a three-week campaign: The first week concentrated on destroying Hezbollah's heavier long-range missiles, bombing its command-and-control centers, and disrupting transportation and communication arteries. In the second week, the focus shifted to attacks on individual sites of rocket launchers or weapons stores. In the third week, ground forces in large numbers would be introduced, but only in order to knock out targets discovered during reconnaissance missions as the campaign unfolded.


This from a 140+ year old newspaper with numerous Pulitzer prizes, and what, were it in Canada, would be the second-largest circulation in the country, right on the heels of the Toronto Star. Not exactly a kooky tabloid.

MotorcycleBoy MotorcycleBoy:
But one question.

If it was so obvious to you as an "impartial observer" that things were happening in the Mid-East, then why didn't any of you predict this war a couple of months ago?


(a) We didn't attend any of the Powerpoint presentations ourselves, this information was only published a week or so ago, and

(b) Israel still needed a pretext, and there was no way of knowing when that would come. The IDF did not know it a couple of months ago, why should we have?

   



Opinionated @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:50 pm

I for one have had enough of all of the bullshit that comes out of the Middle East. I don't think that there's been a time in my lifetime of 48 years , that there's been a time of peace in the Middle East. They love their misery and only want to infect the rest of the world with it. No one in that area has managed to play nice since someone with a vivid imagination invented Allah. What kind of fucking God supports blowing up innocent children as they sit on their schoolbuses? What kind of God would be pleased at killing innocent fathers and mother, grandfathers and grandmothers by flying planes into buildings. Sounds like a cowardly, vindictive and pathetic little God to me.

They've blown the shit out of their countries and afterwards, they compare their ruins to the rest of the developed world and get pissed off about how evil we are for the thriving successful societies that we have built up. Instead of seeing this reality, they brazenly set forth to terrorize the rest of the world with their cowardly tactics in an effort to bring us down to their sad, sorry -assed level. I only hope that I can live long enough to see oil become unneccessary in the world leaving them with sand as their most valuable asset. That will be a sweet day indeed.

The only solution to this is to put together a coallition of countries that can play nice, then invade them and wipe out every man, woman and child in the region. This will have to be co-ordinated to get every Muslim man, woman and child living outside of the Middle East at the same time. Like cockroaches, you have to get every last one to guarantee that the infestation won't return. Then the rest of us can divide up the oil and get on with it. I firmly beleive that the world would be a truly better place without them in it.

They want a Jihad...lets give them a Jihad.

   



SireJoe @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:36 pm

Wow..... good thing your nothing like them and want to kill people indiscriminately. Glad your heads on straight and your not some lunatic with an agenda to kill millions upon millions of innocent people.

Glad ta have you aboard....really....

   



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