Students should pay for the entire cost of education-later
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Brenda @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:51 pm
jeff744 jeff744:
Brenda Brenda:
You have to set the bar somewhere, and you just can't make an exception for everyone. Also, I'm thinking that when you start working, you can't just do what you want or what you are good at. Sometimes you just have to do stuff as part of the job that you are not good at or dislike, until you can afford an assistant to do it for you.
So, yeah, if you want to go to Uni, you better make sure you have all your grades up, and not just the "fun ones".
So, yeah, if you want to go to Uni, you better make sure you have all your grades up, and not just the "fun ones".
Yes but at least the jobs will be remotely close, you aren't going to ask an engineer to go to an archeological site and start digging.
But you do expect a surgeon to know Latin, let alone English.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
jeff744 @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:13 pm
Brenda Brenda:
jeff744 jeff744:
Brenda Brenda:
You have to set the bar somewhere, and you just can't make an exception for everyone. Also, I'm thinking that when you start working, you can't just do what you want or what you are good at. Sometimes you just have to do stuff as part of the job that you are not good at or dislike, until you can afford an assistant to do it for you.
So, yeah, if you want to go to Uni, you better make sure you have all your grades up, and not just the "fun ones".
So, yeah, if you want to go to Uni, you better make sure you have all your grades up, and not just the "fun ones".
Yes but at least the jobs will be remotely close, you aren't going to ask an engineer to go to an archeological site and start digging.
But you do expect a surgeon to know Latin, let alone English.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
No, you expect a surgeon to be able to understand English, not find allegory in Shakespeare, and for them to know certain Latin words, not be able to read Cicero.
martin14 @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:14 pm
Brenda Brenda:
But you do expect a surgeon to know Latin, let alone English.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
Considering almost all medical terms are Latin, here's hoping a surgeon
would know a bit at least.
We are moving past the older idea of just knowing stuff, every area
gets more and more specialized every year, and the education should
reflect that.
andyt @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:18 pm
Being able to communicate is very important. When I was in uni at least, I was told that arts majors were more often the CEO's and managers because of their superior communication skills. The sciences types rose to a certain level - the top of their competence in their field, but in general did advance beyond that because they weren't generalists who could communicate very well with other people outside their area of expertise.
martin14 @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:29 pm
andyt andyt:
Being able to communicate is very important. When I was in uni at least, I was told that arts majors were more often the CEO's and managers because of their superior communication skills. The sciences types rose to a certain level - the top of their competence in their field, but in general did advance beyond that because they weren't generalists who could communicate very well with other people outside their area of expertise.
Sounds like lefty bullshit to keep enrollment up in the Arts Faculties,
and to give some hope.
Like to see how many Fortune 500 companies DONT have a Business/Finance/Lawyer
up top.
Proculation @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:29 pm
Tricks Tricks:
jeff744 jeff744:
So it is fine that your idea would lock out people that are getting high 90s in calculus with ease because they have no interest in understanding allegory in Shakespeare?
Yep.$1:
When they go to university, sciences are usually lumped in with liberal arts for admissions so raising the bar to an 85 means that despite the fact they would excel at university level sciences and never look at Shakespeare again, they have to be satisfied with flipping burgers.
Or show initiative and put in effort and learn it.Shocker, one might actually have to work to get into university.
It reminds me of my first semester of CEGEP (pre-university college in Québec) in sciences. The first french literature classes made me sick and angry and I was thinking I was wasting my time because I wanted to study science, not literature. I decided to quit the literature course on 'principles'. I even wrote a public letter to the Minister of Education telling how stupid it was. (I was 17yo...). It's not that I was against literature but I thought specialization was the way to go to form the best of the best. At the second semester, I had philosophy classes and it showed me that specializing in something is good but that you have to be more 'broad' in your views to make rational decision. I was already a fan of history so adding literature to my general knowledge became normal. I took the failed course again in the summer and had good grade after all. It won't serve me much but it broadened my knowledge and I now think that's how someone going to University should see it.
jeff744 @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:43 pm
Proculation Proculation:
Tricks Tricks:
jeff744 jeff744:
So it is fine that your idea would lock out people that are getting high 90s in calculus with ease because they have no interest in understanding allegory in Shakespeare?
Yep.$1:
When they go to university, sciences are usually lumped in with liberal arts for admissions so raising the bar to an 85 means that despite the fact they would excel at university level sciences and never look at Shakespeare again, they have to be satisfied with flipping burgers.
Or show initiative and put in effort and learn it.Shocker, one might actually have to work to get into university.
It reminds me of my first semester of CEGEP (pre-university college in Québec) in sciences. The first french literature classes made me sick and angry and I was thinking I was wasting my time because I wanted to study science, not literature. I decided to quit the literature course on 'principles'. I even wrote a public letter to the Minister of Education telling how stupid it was. (I was 17yo...). It's not that I was against literature but I thought specialization was the way to go to form the best of the best. At the second semester, I had philosophy classes and it showed me that specializing in something is good but that you have to be more 'broad' in your views to make rational decision. I was already a fan of history so adding literature to my general knowledge became normal. I took the failed course again in the summer and had good grade after all. It won't serve me much but it broadened my knowledge and I now think that's how someone going to University should see it.
So, what about the guys spending all day working on science homework being expected to take classes that slap on major essays and readings too?
Proculation @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:55 pm
There are technical schools for them. Here in Québec, we have the École de Technologie Supérieure (ETS). You specialize in a specific domain and get an engineering degree. What we need is a diversity of schools to accommodate everyone. But, Universities must stay places of standard and knowledge.
Tricks @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:55 pm
jeff744 jeff744:
So, what about the guys spending all day working on science homework being expected to take classes that slap on major essays and readings too?
Yep. Lots of people get to university with 90+ averages. If they can't hack it, they shouldn't be in university. My roommate in first year was a huge pot head slacker. Failed out in the first term. Why was he let in, and then again 2 years later? Cause he had a 77% average. Lots of people in University should not be.
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:18 pm
andyt andyt:
Being able to communicate is very important. When I was in uni at least, I was told that arts majors were more often the CEO's and managers because of their superior communication skills. The sciences types rose to a certain level - the top of their competence in their field, but in general did advance beyond that because they weren't generalists who could communicate very well with other people outside their area of expertise.
Arts students, because an arts degree by itself doesn't always offer much in the way of opportunities, tend to get MBAs or some kind of management training. This, more than communication skills, is why they end up as managers. We've created a professional managers cadre; you don’t work your way up the system anymore.
As for communication skills, I don’t really buy it. Managers have a specialized communication skill set inculcated through training on “How to motivate human talent to embrace change management” or and things like that. Lots of buzzwords that soon become devoid of meaning, inculcated stanard responses to questions from staff.
In my last company things went downhill when we started noticing that our managers were all B.A’s. It wasn’t so much that they didn’t understand what we did, as much as the fact that they didn’t think they needed to.
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:22 pm
Tricks Tricks:
Yep. Lots of people get to university with 90+ averages. If they can't hack it, they shouldn't be in university. My roommate in first year was a huge pot head slacker. Failed out in the first term. Why was he let in, and then again 2 years later? Cause he had a 77% average. Lots of people in University should not be.
I was a slacker and a piss tank and I ended up doing great. Get off your high horse.
Tricks @ Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:43 am
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Tricks Tricks:
Yep. Lots of people get to university with 90+ averages. If they can't hack it, they shouldn't be in university. My roommate in first year was a huge pot head slacker. Failed out in the first term. Why was he let in, and then again 2 years later? Cause he had a 77% average. Lots of people in University should not be.
I was a slacker and a piss tank and I ended up doing great. Get off your high horse.
Cause you're smart. He wasn't.
dino_bobba_renno @ Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:54 am
martin14 martin14:
Brenda Brenda:
But you do expect a surgeon to know Latin, let alone English.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
I don't understand what is wrong with general knowledge. Just KNOWING stuff. If you have the intellectual ability to go to Uni, you sure should have the will to learn stuff. Trivia. When you just consider Shakespeare to be Trivia, you might have found the solution to your aversion.
Considering almost all medical terms are Latin, here's hoping a surgeon
would know a bit at least.
We are moving past the older idea of just knowing stuff, every area
gets more and more specialized every year, and the education should
reflect that.
You don't need to know Latin per say, they have courses which specifically teach medical terminology. The course use to be called "classics", I took it as part of first year bio with some more advanced course later on. Yes it covered Latin but not all medical terminology is solely Latin.
Brenda @ Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:09 am
And that is the difference with here and for example, The Netherlands. Maybe it has changed now, but when I went to school, if you wanted to go to Uni to become a surgeon, you had to do Gymnasium (6 years, comes directly after elementary) with Latin, that starts in the 2nd grade of high school. First year Greek, second Greek and Latin, aside from Biology, math, science, English, Dutch, German, French, Physics, socials, geography etc etc.)
Final exams (country wide) in 10 subjects, school exams in 15 subjects...
From there, you can go straight to University. IF they accept you, of course. My brother went this route but was not accepted at the University he wanted to attend (very prestigious, so many applicants, only 70 spots), so started work at Pioneer Benelux, where he still works.
martin14 @ Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:09 am
Brenda Brenda:
And that is the difference with here and for example, The Netherlands. Maybe it has changed now, but when I went to school, if you wanted to go to Uni to become a surgeon, you had to do Gymnasium (6 years, comes directly after elementary) with Latin, that starts in the 2nd grade of high school. First year Greek, second Greek and Latin, aside from Biology, math, science, English, Dutch, German, French, Physics, socials, geography etc etc.)
Final exams (country wide) in 10 subjects, school exams in 15 subjects...
From there, you can go straight to University. IF they accept you, of course. My brother went this route but was not accepted at the University he wanted to attend (very prestigious, so many applicants, only 70 spots), so started work at Pioneer Benelux, where he still works.
Final exams (country wide) in 10 subjects, school exams in 15 subjects...
From there, you can go straight to University. IF they accept you, of course. My brother went this route but was not accepted at the University he wanted to attend (very prestigious, so many applicants, only 70 spots), so started work at Pioneer Benelux, where he still works.
Things have come a long way since you were chipping on stone tablets, honey...
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