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There is a danger to do the analysis/paralysis when dealing with a complex problem and overdiscuss. Quebec sovereingty is one and so is Canada, perhaps even more so. But changes start with one small step.<br /> Looks like Quebec has done that small step but Canada hasn't. Not sure if Canada will only do this step once Quebec walks away tired of the staring contest.

   

[QUOTE]<br /> To my mind, jimmying around the current system, whether this be through PR, Triple-E Senates, reallocation of responsibilities to other levels, will not address the real problem. What it might do is delude people into believing something 'real' has been done, nothing more. The problem will only be addressed when citizens take on the responsibility of 'government' decision making.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Most people see such jimmying as a first step, getting just enough power to the people to start effecting more changes later. Unless you want a period of anarchy (which I suspect you do <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> ), we need to effect governmental change incrementally.<br /> <br /> Revolution is not the Canadian way, looking at our history and the wants/needs of the average citizen.

   

[QUOTE]There is a danger to do the analysis/paralysis when dealing with a complex problem and overdiscuss.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yes, I'm quite aware of this.<br /> <br /> And there is a danger of creating complexity where none needs to be.<br /> <br /> There is also a danger of confusing tasks that are time consuming with tasks that are complex.<br /> <br /> Getting people on board of a Canadian sovereignty train requires building a case that provides a compelling reason for them to be there and somehow bringing that compelling reason to their attention.<br /> <br /> The facts are available to support our case, it just takes time to gather these facts and put them in whatever form is most likely to draw people in.<br /> <br /> Then you have to get the case in people's faces.<br /> <br /> Government is for the most part simply a set of administrative functions that in our society could be performed at one of three levels. There is nothing particularly complex about these functions from a high level. The only question is at which level the functions should be to best guarantee optimal results for citizens. Again, answering these types of questions can be time-consuming however, they are hardly what I consider complex.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]But changes start with one small step.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Our one small step could be trying to put something together that energizes people in terms of our goals and creating a strategy to get it in their face.<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

   

[QUOTE]Unless you want a period of anarchy (which I suspect you do Wink )[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> No, not in the least.<br /> <br /> What I would want as a Canadian citizen possessing concerns about my nation/democracy is a vision I can latch onto that shows me an attainable goal and gives me some idea of how we can get there and where I fit in.<br /> <br /> I don't disagree that incremental changes may be the most desirable or desired however, I question whether at this point the time remains to us to take the incremental route.<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

   

Heille les Amis Souverainistes !!!<br /> <br /> Michou, 747, Samuel, Fleur-de-Lys, Amiral et compagnie... Un petit article tordant dans le Devoir ce matin.<br /> <br /> Lu dans le DEvoir du 1er mai 2005.<br /> Jean Dion - Qui l'eût cru ?<br /> <br /> En réponse à un sondage, un citoyen a déclaré cette semaine qu'il votera OUI lors du prochain référendum sur la souveraineté du Québec et qu'il tient mordicus à ce qu'une victoire du OUI fasse en sorte que le Québec continue de faire partie du Canada.<br /> <br /> "Il y a une loi sur la clarté, mais elle porte sur la clarté de la question, pas sur la clarté de la réponse. Je pense donc que nous avons tout à fait le droit, comme collectivité, de continuer de faire nos smattes et de niaiser le reste du Canada pendant un sapré bout de temps " a déclaré le citoyen, qui déplore par ailleurs que le bulletin de vote ne comporte pas de case-réponse "ça dépend" ni "pouvez-vous répéter ?".<br /> <br /> " Je vous dis, il y a mille façons de taponner. Le Québec peut devenir un modèle d'ambiguité pour tous les partisans du branlage dans le manche", a-t-il dit.<br /> <br />

   

[QUOTE BY= jesse]<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here we go again!! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/evil.gif' alt='Evil'>

   

What Marcarc has gathered is an integral part of "separatism" itself. Many of us have come to the realization decades ago that Canadian federalism does not work and not only did it not work, but increasingly so. These amateurs pass themselves off as some higher form of governement when in fact they are no better than we are. We are made to bare the consequences of their mistakes, political self cervitude and greed. Why not make our own mistakes on our own terms, but made according to our geopolitical and cultural reality.<br /> <br /> But it's much deeper than what lies on the surface. We have also come to realize that a deliberate agenda to repress the culture and language was in play. Again for political reasons other than our own. This will sound outrageous, but we actually get more respect and understanding for our culture from Americans than from Canadians. We don't get complaints about our traffic signs from visiting Americans, actually, they LOVE the culture shock and fully embrace it.

   

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] What Marcarc has gathered is an integral part of "separatism" itself. Many of us have come to the realization decades ago that Canadian federalism does not work and not only did it not work, but increasingly so. These amateurs pass themselves off as some higher form of governement when in fact they are no better than we are. We are made to bare the consequences of their mistakes, political self cervitude and greed. Why not make our own mistakes on our own terms, but made according to our geopolitical and cultural reality.<br /> <br /> But it's much deeper than what lies on the surface. We have also come to realize that a deliberate agenda to repress the culture and language was in play. Again for political reasons other than our own. This will sound outrageous, but we actually get more respect and understanding for our culture from Americans than from Canadians. We don't get complaints about our traffic signs from visiting Americans, actually, they LOVE the culture shock and fully embrace it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I do share your impression Samuel about those Americans showing more respect about our culture in a way. Why's that ??? Something to think of for Canadians... Moi aussi Samuel j'ai cette impression, j'imagine que nos amis Canadians sont tannés de nous entendre revendiquer des trucs !? Les Américains nous entendent moins n'est-ce pas ?<br /> <br /> Yep, a deliberate canadian agenda seem to be in play... I agree again. Why not letting Québécois make their own mistakes and corruption like they want ? Canadians prefer to overule those and get condescending afterwards ? That's just hypocrit in my point of view...<br /> <br />

   

It's been a long sore point that 'Canada' has always been Quebec and Ontario, and like most old sayings there is some truth to that. This fully explains those derisions that are pointed to, there's a propaganda benefit to keeping people bickering and arguing amongst one another. To play the devil's advocate from the other side, however, one will perhaps see the same linguistic problems in a sovereign Quebec. I feel language should be a local matter, I highly doubt that will be the case in Quebec any more than it is in Canada.<br /> <br /> I don't have anything to add, except that my first point about Meech Lake was way off base, as some more reading showed. I urge others to read up on it and suspect anybody-ESPECIALLY myself, who claims "it's a fact that.."

   

[QUOTE by Samuel]</b> We don’t get complaints about our traffic signs from visiting Americans, actually, they LOVE the culture shock and fully embrace it.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Of course we embrace your traffic signs! The speed limit is typically 65 down here, but 100 or 110 up there! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

   

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] What strikes me the most as a member of a minority in this debate is that Canadians and Québécois are <b>both</b> hung up on this concept of single nationhood or nation-state (did you notice no answer on related post?). Of course they will never willingly acknowledge that you can have a country with more than one Nation. Kinda like the neighbour south? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> How can you realistically expect a First Nation or an Anglophone in Quebec call himself Québécois? How can you realistically expect an FHQ or a First Nation in the ROC call himself "Canadian"?<br /> <br /> In this regard, being Canadien is fundamentally different from being Canadian[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Because the Quebecois are in fact the true "canadians"<br /> <br /> <b>George Washington to Robert Jackson, August 2, 1755</b><br /> <br /> <a href="http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit gw010118))">http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit(gw010118))</a><br /> <br /> [QUOTE]</b>Mount Vernon, August 2, 1755<br /> <br /> We, but a few moments before, believ'd our number's almost equal to the <b>Canadian</b> Force; they only expected to annoy us. Yet, contrary to all expectation and human probability, and even to the common course of things, we were totally defeated[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I am unclear where "canadien" entered the picture. The United States documents makes no reference to "canadien" only "canadian." The britons and the tories have no problem calling themselves canadian so for a Quebecois to call themselves Canadian is akin to "fitting like a glove" <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> Where's the problem?? The problem would be more of repugnance and repulsion. The idea that not only did Canada slip under foreign rule in 1759 but now these occupiers want to also assume our Canadian identity. I suspect it was British brainwashing that led to the jacking of the Quebecois's true identity "Canadian." The Quebecois cannot talk about their true history as truth does not register with these occupiers. Once you start to reference George Washington's writings or Benjamin Franklin, etc these fraudalent imposters are exposed. They begin to squirm and deny this history. What kind of society is there when a society can't even be honest with itself??? Quebec (Canada), the Quebecois are an occupied people. What part of the Queen being in Canada this week is not registering with you people??<br /> <br /> It amazes me how a Nation of people are on a continent for 400 years but are told to go back to France. We are called French or whatever. It is certainly a conspiracy by our occupiers to unseat the Quebecois from their colonial identity - "canadian." However, it's not enough for these conspirators to strip Quebec of its Identity, these conspirators also have to try and strip Quebec of it's "geography"<br /> <br /> If Quebec should acheive a successful referendum, I suggest Canada be happy with what Quebec is, rather than Quebec demand what it was. For Quebec (Canada) to revert back to what it was, would mean Quebec would regain Ontario and Labrador. So yes, then you can have your rupert's land back. I doubt that you or Canada would give Quebec back its Labrador and Ontario so the Idea of Quebec being maliciously repartitioned without being compensated for the loss of Ontario and Labrador is an absurd assertion.<br /> <br /> The Quebec Question has more to do with culture and language dating back into the sixties. Because English Canada will not be content until Quebec is also a 100% English province, I believe the only solution is for the Quebecois to band together like the muslims and begin meeting at our mosques until we deem it necessary to implement a Jihad...<br /> <br /> Of course I am not being serious but If English Canada continues to think the way it thinks towards Quebec, the FLQ will look like a fireworks festival compared to what's to come!! <br /> <br /> If you move to Quebec it is not unreasonable to expect a "Quebecker" to become proficient in the use of French. If you are unwilling to make that effort, than stay the "f(*K out of Quebec!" If you wannabee Canadians have a problem with official bilingualism, I suggest you let Quebec go on its merry way Now, or get the F(*k out of Canada!! Go back to England, the United States or wherever!! <br /> <br /> The way I see it, if you insist on jacking our name "Canada" and assuming our Colonial Identity - "Canadian" you better warm up to French and learn to accept it as you accept English. Continueing to drive Quebec to cultural immolation will be liken to cornering a dog. The only way out of that corner is to lunge at you <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> I believe there is 7 million Quebecois/Canadian in Canada, mostly living in Quebec.<br /> <br /> If Canada wants to destablize Canada continue to drive Quebec to immolation and Canada will get its wish of its very own jihad. An estimated 3 million people voted in favor of sovereingty in 1995. If we could get 300 000 able bodied people of those 3 million to regularly meet at our "mosques" and praise "allah" <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> I am sure he will lead us out of occupation. <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br /> <br /> <br />

   

Again, most canadians don't deny Quebec anything, and most canadians are equally disgusted by their federal (and provincial) governments. Historically of course, NONE of us belong here, but the natives have more rights to the place than anybody, especially now that we have proven we are just going to rape and pillage it (and it goes for Quebec too). Provincially, Quebec has enormous powers and I've never even heard the most radically anti-french speaker claim that 'they should go back to france' or 'start speaking english'. At least not seriously. Manitoba and Saskatchewan both have public auto insurance programs, but you dont' see the maritimes muttering and saying 'they should go back to russia', or 'they should get rid of their system'. In fact, quite the opposite.<br /> <br /> There are a dozen different reasons why a canadian would reject 'separatism' that jump to my mind without hardly thinking about it, none of them are even remotely 'anti french'. If people actually talked instead of making snide comments they'd come to understand what they are.

   

Marcarc<br /> <br /> Quebec separatism is a response not a pursuit. Need I bring forward the latest Supreme court ruling on giving immigrants who neither speak French or English greater access to English Schools and Institutions in Quebec. What about the report Intellectuals for sovereignty where it states the Federal Government allows immigrants to settle in communities of their choice and this includes the English Communities in Quebec.<br /> <br /> A solution to the English problem in Quebec is no more "Ottawa Money" for english Institutions. No more "Quebec Money" for english Institutions. Those who cannot accept that reality, leave Quebec, or Quebec is going to leave Canada. Take your pick!!<br /> <br /> Canada has no history of respecting Quebec, actually quite the opposite. It appears the only way Canada will start listening is maybe the Quebecois adopts the tactics of those muslim groups that strive for Nationhood - and call for a Jihad against our occupiers.<br /> <br /> What's Canada going to do lock up 3 million people?? Gas them all like hitler? 3 Million people can inflict a lot of destruction on Canada. That is how many people spoke in the last referendum!!! I suggest English Canada wake up and listen to those people. If there is anti-French sentiment in Canada, the federal government and the media is to blame. The aim of these 3 million people will be to target Federal and Media Institutions. How are those palestinians making there points in Isreal?? Is this what canada wants???<br /> <br /> Quebec Federalism, means self-determination, a restoration of dignity. Ironically, the Queen being in town ought to drive home the fact Canada is technically no freer than Quebec (I mean people wise!!) <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/exclaim.gif' alt='Exclaimation'>

   

Canadians have no power to change anything in respect to Quebec, when is that going to dawn on you. We can no more change policies than you can change any Quebec policies. If you think all those people who voted yes in the referendum are going to line up in a violent movement I think you will be sadly disappointed. Violent demonstrations against Ottawa could have been held at any time, but they aren't, the only 'taking to the streets' I've seen has been against the provincial government, the one which elected more reps by Quebecers than the PQ. <br /> <br /> The idea that an immigrant be free to choose where they want to live is hardly an aggregious violation of rights, in fact in the charter it is a right that canadians be free to settle where they want. To my mind I can't think why it isn't possible to educate people in french AND english-why have separate schools at all? I do get the feeling sometimes that many who want sovereignty want it so that they can become the new dictators that Ottawa is currently, that's hardly a 'progressive' sign, but I know it isn't necessarily the case.

   

Marcarc<br /> <br /> Language is the binding force that glues a society together. If that binding force is fragmented there is no longer cohesion in the society.<br /> <br /> After Noah's arc to show their appreciation the people were building a tower to heaven. What did this God do? He scattered them around the world and made them speak many different languages so they could not understand each other or continue to build their tower to heaven.<br /> <br /> Contrary to what you think, Canada's multicultural policy is no different than what this God did to thwart the efforts to build a tower to heaven. The liberals are bent on fragmenting Canada so there is no unity. English Canada already has nine english provinces, quit trying to make Quebec the tenth. English Canada sees unity in pitting English Speakers against French Speakers. <br /> <br /> Referendums is a peaceful approach to sovereignty. If Canada insists I believe that this movement will have to be ratcheted up a notch. What is English Canada going to do watch 3 million people for them to throw a fire bomb at a Federal Building or torch an English media outlet in Quebec (maybe Ontario, Labrador, and Nova Scotia, as these were French Possessions at one time). Is this the road Canada wants to go down??? Why should the Quebecois behave any different than the palestinians???<br /> <br /> The Britons stole our Country name, they stole our Canadian name, now they want to steal our geography without compensating Quebec for the loss of Labrador and Ontario. In any Quebecois's mind Ontario and Labrador is our land. Giving away our Land to a billion Chinese or a billion east Indian or whatever other nationality is an insult to the struggles of the First Nations people and the Quebecois. We struggled in Canada for hundreds of years only to be insulted and trampled on by the liberals and their corruption.<br /> <br /> Quebec is our domain. Don't try to paint Quebec as a tyrannical society. Quebec's grievance is its core. It's core is French. English Canada better learn to respect this core. Failure to do so will be a recipe for mayhem.<br /> <br /> Because the liberals appoint the cabinet ministers that oversee the operation of the bureacracies that implement federal actions in Quebec, the liberals are the ones responsible for all the discontent in Quebec.<br /> <br /> It is simple, no more Ottawa money for English Institutions in Quebec. No more Quebec money for english Institutions in Quebec. End of story. If the English in Quebec insist on continuing their ground war in Quebec they will have to do it without the support of Federal or Provincial money. <br /> <br /> Quebec's official language is French, any integrating into quebec's society is to be done in french. Any money from Ottawa going to these institutions ought to be viewed as an act of Aggression by the Federal Government towards Quebec. Because the Liberal Party's cabinet ministers are ultimately responsible for this money getting to these english institutions it is only fitting that these 3 million people that voted for sovereignty target Liberal party property or any other political party that refuses to respect Quebec's political infrastructure. They won't respect our infrastructure so why should we respect theirs. Eye for Eye, tooth for a tooth, <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> <br /> <br /> What is Canada going to do? Watch three million people to see who is going to firebomb a liberal office or a conservative office <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/question.gif' alt='Question'> What are they going to do send in the military?? Have the RCMP or CSIS run 24/7 surveillance on select individuals. This could get rather expensive. Is this the kind of Canada English Canada wants??<br /> <br /> Keep backing the Quebecois into a corner <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/exclaim.gif' alt='Exclaimation'> <br />

   

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