Canada Kicks Ass
What's the point of Jesus?

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andyt @ Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:55 pm

For the believers, please at least read my argument if you choose to respond.

If the story of Jesus is fact - the Son of God was born, died for our sins and was bodily resurrected, then it seems to me there's a problem:

If the only way to God is thru belief in Jesus, that seems to leave the majority of humanity up the creek without a paddle. Little children who die being brought up in another religion or an atheist household, people who have never heard of Jesus etc, are all condemned to have their immortal souls spend eternity is some place other than heaven. Sounds like hell to me. What kind of God would set up a system like that?

If, as for instance the Catholic church has now acknowledged, there are many ways to God, it doesn't require Jesus, doesn't that seem like rather a grand gesture to sacrifice your own son so some people can come to you, when other ways are just as good? Is this the old testament God again, requiring the sacrifice of the first born? He didn't make Abraham (and more importantly Isaac) go thru with it, so maybe he let Jesus off the hook too?

   



Tman1 @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:18 am

How can Jesus be born if Mary was a virgin?

   



andyt @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:23 am

Tman1 Tman1:
How can Jesus be born if Mary was a virgin?


Well, if God can make his Son appear in human form, surely he can perform the miracle of immaculate conception. I have a bit more problem with virgin birth.

But the Gospel of Mark starts off showing the lineage of Joseph, to prove that he is a descendant of David - so that since he's Jesus' (adoptive) father, Jesus is also a descendant of David. (This fulfills a prophesy about the Messiah). But, since Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus' conception, shouldn't the genealogy be about Mary's descent from David?

   



HyperionTheEvil @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:27 am

Jesus is great, but only on toast

   



PostFactum @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:33 am

andyt andyt:
Tman1 Tman1:
How can Jesus be born if Mary was a virgin?


Well, if God can make his Son appear in human form, surely he can perform the miracle of immaculate conception. I have a bit more problem with virgin birth.

But the Gospel of Mark starts off showing the lineage of Joseph, to prove that he is a descendant of David - so that since he's Jesus' (adoptive) father, Jesus is also a descendant of David. (This fulfills a prophesy about the Messiah). But, since Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus' conception, shouldn't the genealogy be about Mary's descent from David?


From the point of god we can explain everything, because it's a god. In bible scientists have found for about 5000 mistakes, so what? It's religion. Koran was written from bible, and no one from Arabian world explaines that. So the main thing in religion is in believing not explaining, if someone tries to explain religion, he is not sure in it.

   



PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:44 am

This is a question that has been brought up in theological circles for years.
Even though the Bible says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man may enter the Kingdom of Heaven but by me", there is some leniency in that rule.
For example, there would have been MANY people condemned to hell for the first few hundred years or so simply because they never even heard of Jesus Christ, nevermind His death and resurrection. I don't buy that.
Same with little children. God said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me".
The idea that Jesus is the key to heaven is basically for people that have heard the stories about Jesus Christ.
It was explained to me years ago that it's all about choice. If you haven't heard the Word, well then you are unable to make the choice. However this doesn't equate with earthly laws where ignorance is no excuse.
If someone lives their entire life never hearing the word of God, yet still tries to live a good life, I don't think for one second God is going to punish one of His children by condemning them to hell.

As for the Catholic Church as a source of acknowledgement, considering their current, recent and ancient history, nevermind the fact that they routinely break one of the 10 commandments in their doctrine, I'm not surprised they'd claim there was an "out".
As for Abraham and Isaac, it was test of Abraham's faith. Jesus sacrifice was something entirely different. The whole purpose of sacrificing Christ was to actually make it easier to ask forgiveness and get into heaven. Before that, animals pure in virtue were sacrificed to ask for forgiveness.

This is also why I laugh at some Christian groups that hate the Jews because it was the Jews that were responsible for Jesus' death.
These silly people don't realize that if Jesus hadn't have been put to death, the entire Christian religion wouldn't even exist. Despite their rationale for condemning Jesus to death, the Jewish clerics at the time were unintentionally instrumental in the formation of the Christian faith.

   



Tman1 @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:49 am

andyt andyt:
Tman1 Tman1:
How can Jesus be born if Mary was a virgin?


Well, if God can make his Son appear in human form, surely he can perform the miracle of immaculate conception. I have a bit more problem with virgin birth.

But the Gospel of Mark starts off showing the lineage of Joseph, to prove that he is a descendant of David - so that since he's Jesus' (adoptive) father, Jesus is also a descendant of David. (This fulfills a prophesy about the Messiah). But, since Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus' conception, shouldn't the genealogy be about Mary's descent from David?

That defeats the purpose of marriage than doesn't it?

   



Public_Domain @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:13 am

:|

   



Guy_Fawkes @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:19 am

I think Jesus was thrown in the bible as an attractive figure for people to aspire to; you can find other 'Jesus' characters in other religions, one of which I know predates Christianity.

   



angler57 @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:44 am

A question only? Why are Jesus and Christians so often put under such intense doubt?
Have never heard anyone question the Chippawa God Manitou.
When on Manitoulin Island he becomes a very real being to many.
Belief is a very personal thing. Much like opinions.
Seems if a person finds a belief that gives them comfort. Others should say, good
for them?
JUST A THOUGHT

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=G06p53nRBcE

   



Guy_Fawkes @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:14 am

Why is faith a good thing?

   



angler57 @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:00 am

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:
Why is faith a good thing?


Angler57
To look at both sides Fairly?
Why is faith a bad thing?


People show their faith in many ways. None are bad only different in many viewers eyes.
A receptive minds sees and accepts differences.
Am sending a video that shows one beautiful way people show
faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=krJW2qMVv4M

   



Guy_Fawkes @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:12 am

I asked first but, Religious faith in my opinion is a assumtion of fact without evidence. Saying something is true without proof that it is nor isnt is not a good thing.

In response to your video, would that celebration be better or worse if it was done without religious overtones? I think not, really if someone didnt know that it had a connection with any religion it wouldnt effect anything. You dont need faith to have a funeral like that, all you need is a want to celebrate the persons life.

   



BartSimpson @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:08 am

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:
Why is faith a good thing?


Because it is an expression of hope.

People who have no faith in anything or anyone tend to also not have any hope.

   



BartSimpson @ Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:13 am

andyt andyt:
For the believers, please at least read my argument if you choose to respond.

If the story of Jesus is fact - the Son of God was born, died for our sins and was bodily resurrected, then it seems to me there's a problem:

If the only way to God is thru belief in Jesus, that seems to leave the majority of humanity up the creek without a paddle. Little children who die being brought up in another religion or an atheist household, people who have never heard of Jesus etc, are all condemned to have their immortal souls spend eternity is some place other than heaven. Sounds like hell to me. What kind of God would set up a system like that?

If, as for instance the Catholic church has now acknowledged, there are many ways to God, it doesn't require Jesus, doesn't that seem like rather a grand gesture to sacrifice your own son so some people can come to you, when other ways are just as good? Is this the old testament God again, requiring the sacrifice of the first born? He didn't make Abraham (and more importantly Isaac) go thru with it, so maybe he let Jesus off the hook too?


No offense, but I've found that trying to discuss faith with an atheist is like trying to discuss the beauty of a field of tulips with someone who is color blind. No matter how hard I try to explain the matter, you will not see it.

I'm now at the point where I'm no longer going to bother trying.

   



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