Obama to unveil gun violence measures
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andyt @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:13 am
commanderkai commanderkai:
I agree. The United States is the highest populated, and likely the most diverse country on the planet. In my view, for the most part, even with some of it's political and social tensions in the late 20th and 21st century, the United States is still an amazing country with many positive traits. However, the history of the United States isn't exactly stellar, but I view that as a part of the unique nature of the United States ethnic diversity. In the end, up until relatively recently, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand (and dump all of Western Europe in there) was overwhelmingly culturally homogenous. Canada may be the major exception, due to Quebec.
The United States, in its early history, had a significant minority population from its founding, and racial tensions suffered from it. The first American census had the African American population in the United States at about 29%, with 92% of them in slavery. Great Britain and other European powers, for the most part, had their minority (and slave) populations in their colonial holdings. This placed a significant portion of America's population in dismal poverty just because of their ethnicity on their domestic soil, a legacy that really could only be combated after the Civil Rights Movement, and something that the United States still actively tries to deal with today, with mixed results. At the same time, Great Britain (France was a bit more stubborn) washed its hands of its colonial territories after World War II, leaving a chaotic mess we're still cleaning up, combating, and dealing with today.
However, I see this much more as a poverty issue over anything else. A middle class African American or Hispanic will not be inherently more violent than a middle class white person, for example. The issue with the United States is that a huge chunk (probably 15% or so) of their population basically was forced to be second class citizens up until the 1960s. Something I don't think Canada(other than maybe Quebec), or New Zealand, or Australia or the United Kingdom can claim. For a similar example (maybe), look at how Aboriginals in Canada suffer higher suicides, violence, and significantly higher crime and poverty rates compared to the average Canadian. The Aboriginals represent 3.8% of the population, and yet, even with significant government assistance, are still facing significant hurdles that need to be overcome (and honestly, it doesn't matter if you blame the corrupt Tribal leaders, the government, etc). The United States faces a similar problem, but instead of just 3.8% of a country of 32 million, it's 12.6% of a population over 315 million.
I think the cynical nature that leads to such an excessively high murder rate is what needs to be broken. Really, any gun ban is too late to make any major difference in the short term. There are too many illegal firearms in the hands of criminals and gangs at this very moment to really make a noticeable dent in murders in the United States. In the end, I'd argue it would be breaking that cynical situation where gangs are seen as a viable career choice to a number of people. That the fact that inner city schools are disasters, which, again, is a cynical circle in those communities, something I view Charter Schools breaking in Detroit, but a lot of progress is still necessary. Inner city schools in Detroit are grossly underfunded, leading to resource/skill shortages, but the resources the schools have are poorly utilized and commonly defaced or damaged, making investment seem like a poor use of limited taxpayer money, especially with high crime and other social issues.
Honestly, if Canadians want to see how many Americans view combating high crime in cities, look no further than how cynical we Canadians are about our Aboriginal populations, multiplied by the factor that a huge portion of America's population in poverty live in dense urban centers, and not sparsely populated reserves.
The United States, in its early history, had a significant minority population from its founding, and racial tensions suffered from it. The first American census had the African American population in the United States at about 29%, with 92% of them in slavery. Great Britain and other European powers, for the most part, had their minority (and slave) populations in their colonial holdings. This placed a significant portion of America's population in dismal poverty just because of their ethnicity on their domestic soil, a legacy that really could only be combated after the Civil Rights Movement, and something that the United States still actively tries to deal with today, with mixed results. At the same time, Great Britain (France was a bit more stubborn) washed its hands of its colonial territories after World War II, leaving a chaotic mess we're still cleaning up, combating, and dealing with today.
However, I see this much more as a poverty issue over anything else. A middle class African American or Hispanic will not be inherently more violent than a middle class white person, for example. The issue with the United States is that a huge chunk (probably 15% or so) of their population basically was forced to be second class citizens up until the 1960s. Something I don't think Canada(other than maybe Quebec), or New Zealand, or Australia or the United Kingdom can claim. For a similar example (maybe), look at how Aboriginals in Canada suffer higher suicides, violence, and significantly higher crime and poverty rates compared to the average Canadian. The Aboriginals represent 3.8% of the population, and yet, even with significant government assistance, are still facing significant hurdles that need to be overcome (and honestly, it doesn't matter if you blame the corrupt Tribal leaders, the government, etc). The United States faces a similar problem, but instead of just 3.8% of a country of 32 million, it's 12.6% of a population over 315 million.
I think the cynical nature that leads to such an excessively high murder rate is what needs to be broken. Really, any gun ban is too late to make any major difference in the short term. There are too many illegal firearms in the hands of criminals and gangs at this very moment to really make a noticeable dent in murders in the United States. In the end, I'd argue it would be breaking that cynical situation where gangs are seen as a viable career choice to a number of people. That the fact that inner city schools are disasters, which, again, is a cynical circle in those communities, something I view Charter Schools breaking in Detroit, but a lot of progress is still necessary. Inner city schools in Detroit are grossly underfunded, leading to resource/skill shortages, but the resources the schools have are poorly utilized and commonly defaced or damaged, making investment seem like a poor use of limited taxpayer money, especially with high crime and other social issues.
Honestly, if Canadians want to see how many Americans view combating high crime in cities, look no further than how cynical we Canadians are about our Aboriginal populations, multiplied by the factor that a huge portion of America's population in poverty live in dense urban centers, and not sparsely populated reserves.
Interesting and good for you for bringing up poverty.
But you and Zip are getting off track. None of what you've written explains the large number of mass shootings, which is what's giving rise to this debate. That's mostly white, middle class men. You're conflating issues here. So there are other factors at play here than "it's the blacks" or poverty.
desertdude @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:27 am
Hmm...maybe you didn't look at the flag next to my avatar, you mistake and mix up where I live and where I come from : Pakistan.
Where as I write this, a million man march and peaceful protest and sit in is into its 5th day in the nations capital, calling for a change and excercsing their democratic right and just now and I mean NOW ( watching a live telecast on the side), the govt has agreed to their demands.
Shit you know about my culture, you don't even know where I come from !
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
He is also representative of so many people around the world who foolishly believe that their rights are not rights at all, but instead are mere privileges granted to them by their rulers. And those privileges can be revoked or restricted as it suits those rulers.
WOW...really, didn't know I was even nominated
You try to use legimate sounding language to make your bullshit sound legit, some might fall for it, many don't. Like your recent bullshit thread about a total ban on guns. Where you very cunningly manipulated the information by partial quotes and no links to back up your bull shit, when called on it, quitely slid out of the thread to start squirming elsewhere.
Yeah, once again close but no cigar
BartSimpson @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:29 am
commanderkai commanderkai:
The issue with the United States is that a huge chunk (probably 15% or so) of their population basically was forced to be second class citizens up until the 1960s. Something I don't think Canada(other than maybe Quebec), or New Zealand, or Australia or the United Kingdom can claim.
I'm isolating my comment here to this part. New Zealand's Maori community was subjected to what are best called apartheid policies well into the 1990's. Queen Elizabeth II protested the situation on one of her first visits to New Zealand by going against the wishes of the NZ government and making a point of visiting with Maoris and enjoying their hospitality.
Australia had restrictive laws against the Aborigines well into the 1970's that prevented them from owning guns, prevented them from travel, prevented them from access to education, and also involved taking children away from their families - not unlike what Canada did to her Natives with the Residence Schools.
Is the US innoncent? Not at all. But don't go rewriting history to pretend that Commonwealth countries were so much better because they were not.
martin14 @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:29 am
Here's a close but no cigar....
No Ar-15 used in Newtown.
BartSimpson @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:38 am
desertdude desertdude:
Hmm...maybe you didn't look at the flag next to my avatar, you mistake and mix up where I live and where I come from : Pakistan.
Your reading comprehension is suffering. I said 'culture' not 'country'.
desertdude desertdude:
Where as I write this, a million man march and peaceful protest and sit in is into its 5th day in the nations capital, calling for a change and excercsing their democratic right and just now and I mean NOW ( watching a live telecast on the side), the govt has agreed to their demands.
That's nice. When confronted by a revolt Dubai tries to moderate it instead of taking ranks with Syria, Libya, Tunisia, and Egypt. Nice to know that your 'democracy' works so well when your leaders are facing death.
desertdude desertdude:
Shit you know about my culture, you don't even know where I come from !
I knew you were from Pakistan and living in Dubai.
desertdude desertdude:
You try to use legimate sounding language to make your bullshit sound legit, some might fall for it, many don't. Like your recent bullshit thread about a total ban on guns. Where you very cunningly manipulated the information by partial quotes and no links to back up your bull shit, when called on it, quitely slid out of the thread to start squirming elsewhere.
Hard to respond to a topic when the topic is locked.
desertdude desertdude:
Yeah, once again close but no cigar
I'm closer than you think.
commanderkai @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:44 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
commanderkai commanderkai:
The issue with the United States is that a huge chunk (probably 15% or so) of their population basically was forced to be second class citizens up until the 1960s. Something I don't think Canada(other than maybe Quebec), or New Zealand, or Australia or the United Kingdom can claim.
I'm isolating my comment here to this part. New Zealand's Maori community was subjected to what are best called apartheid policies well into the 1990's. Queen Elizabeth II protested the situation on one of her first visits to New Zealand by going against the wishes of the NZ government and making a point of visiting with Maoris and enjoying their hospitality.
Australia had restrictive laws against the Aborigines well into the 1970's that prevented them from owning guns, prevented them from travel, prevented them from access to education, and also involved taking children away from their families - not unlike what Canada did to her Natives with the Residence Schools.
Is the US innoncent? Not at all. But don't go rewriting history to pretend that Commonwealth countries were so much better because they were not.
I agree with you. Absolutely no Commonwealth country is totally clear, and no country can somehow claim moral superiority in the discussion. Hell, one aspect of Canadian history that I find hugely embarrassing is that we accepted around 4,000 Jews just before WWII. However, my knowledge about the Maori is extremely limited (although I figured they were treated terribly) and I do not know the extent of how large of a minority they are compared to the overall New Zealand population. Canada (probably Australia too) are hugely cynical about dealing with Aboriginals, when they consist of only 4% of Canada's population today, while the United States deals with a much larger fraction of its population that only recently received the same rights and freedoms as Americans as a whole. That, in my view, leads to the significant difference in poverty and crime in the United States compared to Canada, not some cultural difference, or that Americans are inherently more stupid or evil or some bullshit like that.
commanderkai @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:48 am
andyt andyt:
Interesting and good for you for bringing up poverty.
But you and Zip are getting off track. None of what you've written explains the large number of mass shootings, which is what's giving rise to this debate. That's mostly white, middle class men. You're conflating issues here. So there are other factors at play here than "it's the blacks" or poverty.
But you and Zip are getting off track. None of what you've written explains the large number of mass shootings, which is what's giving rise to this debate. That's mostly white, middle class men. You're conflating issues here. So there are other factors at play here than "it's the blacks" or poverty.
Well, I was discussing overall gun violence in the United States. Mass shootings, in my view, are still extremely rare, even with this tragic, horrible event that happened last year. More than anything, I view mental health being the key factor that the United States needs to combat to prevent future mass shootings.
This situation was a result of a mentally disturbed man, murdering his mother, and stealing her legally purchased guns. I view combating mental illness being more hugely critical to stopping these future shootings than any sort of gun control.
andyt @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:52 am
Yes they're rare. But they have a huge impact on the nation, and are so much more commonplace in the US than elsewhere. Metal illness is not more prevalent in the US than elsewhere, so something else is playing out here. Maybe just a juxtaposition of mental illness and gun culture, who knows.
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
Zipperfish @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:54 am
andyt andyt:
Interesting and good for you for bringing up poverty.
But you and Zip are getting off track. None of what you've written explains the large number of mass shootings, which is what's giving rise to this debate. That's mostly white, middle class men. You're conflating issues here. So there are other factors at play here than "it's the blacks" or poverty.
I was talking about gun violence in the US writ large, in comparison to other countries. Providing some context. Spree killings are, from a statistical viewpoint, highly stochastic (random, if you will). Like serial killers. They are difficult to model and predict, and that makes it difficult to measure if implemented policies are working or not.
For a comparison, say you insitituted a regulation designed to reduce meltdowns at nuclear power plants. They only happen, say, once every 50 years anyways. It take sa long time for you to be able to determine if your regulation works or not.
I suppose you could do an anlysis on some stuff: interaction of spree killers with mental health agencies prior to their spree. Ratio of number of persons killed to weapon used. Ease of access to effective spreee killing weapons. Genetic factors. I imagine these studies have been done. I haven't examined the issue closely but would hazard a guess that it would be difficult to tease out the signal from the noise.
Zipperfish @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:58 am
andyt andyt:
Yes they're rare. But they have a huge impact on the nation, and are so much more commonplace in the US than elsewhere. Metal illness is not more prevalent in the US than elsewhere, so something else is playing out here. Maybe just a juxtaposition of mental illness and gun culture, who knows.
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
That is an interesting question. I've read somewhere that, even accounting for income and other factors, crime by blacks and Hispanics is higher. I don't want to source that because when I type stuff like "race violence" into a serach engine it takes me places I don't reallly want to go. Of course, when you get into race, its an academic quagmire. Researchers don't really want to go there. Still, one of the reasons offered for the increased crime rate is the idea that a subculture within a dominant culture is naturally more violent.
andyt @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:01 am
Funny, I recall reading the opposite - non-white middle class don't do more crime. And, factor in white collar crime, and what do you get? (I'm asking). I guess as blacks and latinos move into the middle class, they bring some propensity for violence with them - ie it's how they grew up. Wonder if their fat and prosperous grandkids still do more crimes, if indeed what you say is true.
Also found this without having to go anywhere nasty:
$1:
Because of the close living quarters between lower middle-class African Americans and poor African Americans, there is high potential for lower middle-class African Americans to develop friendships, relationships, and ties to poor African Americans and find themselves sharing the same urban environments. As a result, sociologists have found that the African American community's middle-class has a greater potential than do middle-class whites of being involved with crimes and falling victim to crimes.
wiki
desertdude @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:19 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Your reading comprehension is suffering. I said 'culture' not 'country'.
Oh I forgot, you think of muslims as one big monolithic bloc and we are all the same, other wise you wouldn't say shit like this, because UAE's and Pakistan's culture are poles apart. Not even similar like the US and Canada's.
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
That's nice. When confronted by a revolt Dubai tries to moderate it instead of taking ranks with Syria, Libya, Tunisia, and Egypt. Nice to know that your 'democracy' works so well when your leaders are facing death.
Once again UAE ( not Dubai, because Dubai is a city in a country called the UAE ) and Pakistan are not the same country and it not "my" democracy because it not my country. FAIL !
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I knew you were from Pakistan and living in Dubai.
All the same to you, eh ?
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Hard to respond to a topic when the topic is locked.
Did you mean, you wished it was locked because got called on your bullshit ?
random-insanity-f16/idiot-new-york-governor-and-legislature-banned-all-guns-t103794.html
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I'm closer than you think.
Couldn't give a rat ass and what has that got do with anything ?
BartSimpson @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:26 am
andyt andyt:
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
They might trend down.
I only say that because the Census Bureau just released data showing that Asians are now ahead of Latins in terms of immigration numbers. That's good news on the crime front because Asians are even more law abiding than European folks. The decline of Latin immigration is also improving crime rates in California's inner cities.
Seems a lot of illegal aliens are moving back to Mexico and taking their gang-banging, thug children with them.
To which I say, Gracias!
commanderkai @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:33 am
andyt andyt:
Yes they're rare. But they have a huge impact on the nation, and are so much more commonplace in the US than elsewhere. Metal illness is not more prevalent in the US than elsewhere, so something else is playing out here. Maybe just a juxtaposition of mental illness and gun culture, who knows.
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
I wonder what will happen to minority crime stats once whites become the minority in the US.
But that's the thing, they're rare, and they're generally lacking any understandable motivation. People can understand murder and violence because of a drug deal going bad, or gang violence, or a robbery gone wrong, or crime of passion (so on and so forth) but what justification or understanding can there be for a man to shoot up a movie theater or a school? The reason they have a huge impact (much like terrorism has) is because it impacts a huge amount of people that you would not generally see as victims of such violence.
To put it lightly, if 24 gangsters (Crips, Bloods, Aryan Brotherhood, MS13, etc) were murdered at a house party, most of us frankly wouldn't give a shit. As harsh as this might be, Detroit in 2012 had 375-386 murders (saw two different numbers), in a population of less than a million. A majority of those murders happen to people most of us frankly don't give a fuck about, like drug users, dealers, gangsters, etc. We only really care about are the innocent victims killed by a thief or from being in the cross fire, or the police officers who have to deal with this shit.
BartSimpson @ Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:36 am
DD, I didn't read the rest of that topic.
If you're ever wanting me to answer a specific post feel free to pm me with the link and I'll do so when I can.
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