Canada Kicks Ass
Why do Canadians think the US threatens their independence?

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herbie @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:33 pm

Then we think the US threatens our independence because we all believe it's the Great Satan?
See, I can wander all over the place too. We've wandered off into WW2 and 1812...
How about we address the question posed, and I think the time frame was meant to be now.
How about a current example, say the Free Trade Agreement? We signed this agreement that grants full access to our natural resources. The actions of the USA on the Softwood Lumber issue demonstrate that the USA has no intent of abiding by that agreement.
Now we have a deal, and those wealthy Montana mill owners can reduce the US's wood supply to zero without facing competition. Which they will, they always have (witness Oregon and the death of places like Coos Bay) because that's the 'true free enterprise' way of doing things.
When the wood's all gone, they're going to demand we export ours to fill in (they already are).
Now the same lobby group, and it consists of BOTH Dems and Reps, is trying to convince us that we don't own our forests, that public ownership and Crown Land is a bad "socialist" idea. They've already demanded and won the removal of appurtenance clauses (tying a certain portion of wood extracted in an area to be milled in that area) as it goes against "American" business philosophy.

Now there's an example of WHY we're concerned. It's not about sending an army to conquer us. It's a matter of forcing other countries to be like the USA when we aren't the USA.

   



TheFoundersIntent @ Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:17 pm

SprCForr SprCForr:
Capt Nolan, possibly attempting to divert the plunge... Capt Nolan, possibly attempting to divert the plunge...:
True, and Hitler is the common person's chance to comment (not always correctly) on history. It's not too often someone chimes in with a Crimean War reference. :wink:


Oooo, see what I did there?

PDT_Armataz_01_14

Hey Dr Quest. That was one of my favorite cartoons as a kid.

   



SprCForr @ Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:20 pm

Best. Cartoon. Ever.

:D

   



TheFoundersIntent @ Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:13 pm

rhesusman rhesusman:
I notice that Canadians seem to be very protective of their independence and sovereignty from us in the United States. Is this feeling genuine? And if so, why? I'm not talking about cultural distinctiveness, I'm talking about Canada's out and out political independence as a sovereign state.

No one in the United States has any serious interest in annexing Canada. American conservatives despise Canada, and the idea of adding what would inevitably turn out to be almost a dozen new left-leaning states to the United States would terrify them (ironically, I suspect that if Canada were part of the United States, it could have stopped the Iraq War). American liberals find the idea of annexation of an independent nation to be abhorrent, and many really want Canada to remain separate as a place to which to escape if some right wing extremist takes over in this country. We don't want to have to deal with all the baggage associated with all the Quebec related issues, and we certainly don't want to have to start labeling things in French. In the insular world of American politics, Canada is not even on the radar. Practically no prominent politicians at the federal level routinely mention Canada. Conservative politicians tend to reserve most of their ire with our allies for France, not you. More Americans probably know who the prime minister of the UK is than know the prime minister of Canada. If the recent behavior of the US State Department is anything to go by, our government apparently doesn't trust your government to keep terrorists off the continent. We do have some bad social policies that the Canadian government may be tempted to emulate, but that's not the same as us threatening your independence.

Given all this, where do some Canadians come away with the idea that the US is somehow a threat to Canadian sovereignty? It doesn't seem to be rooted in anything Americans are actually saying or doing. Is such talk really serious? Listening to people like this, http://www.canadians.org/about/BOD/visi ... round.html, you'd think that tanks were ready to roll across the border!

It's called paranoia.

   



Arctic_Menace @ Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:14 pm

TheFoundersIntent TheFoundersIntent:
rhesusman rhesusman:
I notice that Canadians seem to be very protective of their independence and sovereignty from us in the United States. Is this feeling genuine? And if so, why? I'm not talking about cultural distinctiveness, I'm talking about Canada's out and out political independence as a sovereign state.

No one in the United States has any serious interest in annexing Canada. American conservatives despise Canada, and the idea of adding what would inevitably turn out to be almost a dozen new left-leaning states to the United States would terrify them (ironically, I suspect that if Canada were part of the United States, it could have stopped the Iraq War). American liberals find the idea of annexation of an independent nation to be abhorrent, and many really want Canada to remain separate as a place to which to escape if some right wing extremist takes over in this country. We don't want to have to deal with all the baggage associated with all the Quebec related issues, and we certainly don't want to have to start labeling things in French. In the insular world of American politics, Canada is not even on the radar. Practically no prominent politicians at the federal level routinely mention Canada. Conservative politicians tend to reserve most of their ire with our allies for France, not you. More Americans probably know who the prime minister of the UK is than know the prime minister of Canada. If the recent behavior of the US State Department is anything to go by, our government apparently doesn't trust your government to keep terrorists off the continent. We do have some bad social policies that the Canadian government may be tempted to emulate, but that's not the same as us threatening your independence.

Given all this, where do some Canadians come away with the idea that the US is somehow a threat to Canadian sovereignty? It doesn't seem to be rooted in anything Americans are actually saying or doing. Is such talk really serious? Listening to people like this, http://www.canadians.org/about/BOD/visi ... round.html, you'd think that tanks were ready to roll across the border!

It's called paranoia.


Indeed it is. You Americans also seem to be intimately familiar with the subject yourselves...

   



garabru @ Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:47 am

I have lived in the US these last few years and my perception of the general attitude toward Canada is somewhere between benign disdain and total indifference. Nobody cares much . The literati do observe that Vancouver is slowly drifting ever closer to Seattle , Toronto to Chicago , and the Maritimes are basically an appendage to New England . From conversations I've had down here on the subject , English Canada would basically be welcome if it did apply , on a province-by-province basis or as a group or sub-groups , but nobody is losing any sleep over a non-existent issue at this point.

Quebec is another story . On one hand they speak foreign, which is just not civilised , and their tongue isn't even proper French so you can't send your kids up there to learn the language . On the other hand , Montreal has a good image as a European-type city to visit. Quebec as a US state ? I don't see this in the cards , at least not at US prompting.

In summary , I don't feel the US is at all interested in annexing Canada , except for a couple of hockey fans , oil magnates and right-wingers who don't like the "browning of America" and would gladly accept a mostly white admixture.

In my own view , the threat does exist , but it comes from within Canada . When I read on-line forums like yours and others (Globe and Mail , Montreal Gazette, etc.) ,I often have the feeling of Tutsis speaking to Hutus , Flemings to Walloons , Croats to Serbs , Pakistanis to Indians ...If politicians like Steve Harper (whom I otherwise respect) keep nudging Quebec towards the US , then Quebec may indeed end up within the US (e.g. with the same status as Puerto Rico or like Scotland within the UK , complete with SNP) , and the dreaded domino theory will come to pass . The only threat to Canada is Canada itself.

I personally have no wish for Canada to be dismembered , much to the contrary . But in all honesty I have to say I was in Czechoslovakia when the Slovaks seceded , and I have to say it was indeed a "velvet divorce" and , fourteen years or so later , both nations are doing well (particularly the Slovaks , who everybody at the time thought they were headed straight for the tank).

   



Mowich @ Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:11 am

I beg to differ with the rhesusman on his figure of a 'dozen left-leaning states.' Last time I looked BC, Alta, Sask, and Ont at least are more right-leaning than leftist. As far as fearing the United States, I pity them. The turmoil they now find themselves in is of their own making, financial and otherwise. Their ignorance of and about Canada is universal in scope. I think they have now come to a point in history where any relevance they might have had will be usurped by their financial melt-down and subsequent rise of China as the new superpower.

   



bootlegga @ Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:00 pm

Mowich Mowich:
I beg to differ with the rhesusman on his figure of a 'dozen left-leaning states.' Last time I looked BC, Alta, Sask, and Ont at least are more right-leaning than leftist. As far as fearing the United States, I pity them. The turmoil they now find themselves in is of their own making, financial and otherwise. Their ignorance of and about Canada is universal in scope. I think they have now come to a point in history where any relevance they might have had will be usurped by their financial melt-down and subsequent rise of China as the new superpower.


Actually, it would depend mostly on how the districts were drawn up, as the larger cities in BC, Alberta (Edmonton especially), and Ontario lean more to the centre/left than right. If you don't believe me, look at California for example, a lot of rurual/suburban districts are Republican, but the state goes blue because of population density in LA and San Fran.

   



TheFoundersIntent @ Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:53 pm

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:
TheFoundersIntent TheFoundersIntent:
rhesusman rhesusman:
I notice that Canadians seem to be very protective of their independence and sovereignty from us in the United States. Is this feeling genuine? And if so, why? I'm not talking about cultural distinctiveness, I'm talking about Canada's out and out political independence as a sovereign state.

No one in the United States has any serious interest in annexing Canada. American conservatives despise Canada, and the idea of adding what would inevitably turn out to be almost a dozen new left-leaning states to the United States would terrify them (ironically, I suspect that if Canada were part of the United States, it could have stopped the Iraq War). American liberals find the idea of annexation of an independent nation to be abhorrent, and many really want Canada to remain separate as a place to which to escape if some right wing extremist takes over in this country. We don't want to have to deal with all the baggage associated with all the Quebec related issues, and we certainly don't want to have to start labeling things in French. In the insular world of American politics, Canada is not even on the radar. Practically no prominent politicians at the federal level routinely mention Canada. Conservative politicians tend to reserve most of their ire with our allies for France, not you. More Americans probably know who the prime minister of the UK is than know the prime minister of Canada. If the recent behavior of the US State Department is anything to go by, our government apparently doesn't trust your government to keep terrorists off the continent. We do have some bad social policies that the Canadian government may be tempted to emulate, but that's not the same as us threatening your independence.

Given all this, where do some Canadians come away with the idea that the US is somehow a threat to Canadian sovereignty? It doesn't seem to be rooted in anything Americans are actually saying or doing. Is such talk really serious? Listening to people like this, http://www.canadians.org/about/BOD/visi ... round.html, you'd think that tanks were ready to roll across the border!

It's called paranoia.


Indeed it is. You Americans also seem to be intimately familiar with the subject yourselves...

Really, with regard to you?

   



Canadian_09 @ Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:29 pm

im eatin my chocolate bar! iT taSTES delicious!

   



roger-roger @ Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:39 pm

:? Something is lacking from the new people joining this forum I find.

   



Arctic_Menace @ Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:58 pm

TheFoundersIntent TheFoundersIntent:
Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:
Indeed it is. You Americans also seem to be intimately familiar with the subject yourselves...

Really, with regard to you?


Nope. Just with paranoia in general.

   



StuntmanMike @ Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:30 pm

herbie herbie:
Now we have a deal, and those wealthy Montana mill owners can reduce the US's wood supply to zero without facing competition. Which they will, they always have (witness Oregon and the death of places like Coos Bay) because that's the 'true free enterprise' way of doing things.
When the wood's all gone, they're going to demand we export ours to fill in (they already are).


Now the same lobby group, and it consists of BOTH Dems and Reps, is trying to convince us that we don't own our forests, that public ownership and Crown Land is a bad "socialist" idea..



So, you're complaining the U.S. is rapaciously forcing us to sell them all our forests, while at the same time screwing us over by trying to prevent that lumber from coming into the States by hammering our softwood lumber products with an import tax.

I'm not an expert on the softwood lumber file, but it would seem to me your argument contradicts itself.

   



Arrow @ Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:38 pm

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
Relying? Because we do a lot of buisness with the U.S.? Do you know why we do a lot of buisness with the U.S.? Because its cheaper because the U.S. is right beside us.


But ya know what? Cheaper has its costs as we're presently finding out. To centre your economy around one importing country is to leave yourself unnecessarily open to the vagaries of that economy.


Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
It's much more expensive and time consuming to ship off a large ammount of natural resources to countries like China who have a high demand for the resources we offer when a country with the same high demand lives right next to us.


Here's a thought; let's stop being hewers of wood and drawers of water! Let's do value-added! Whatta notion!

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
If we wanted, we could stop trading with the U.S. and take our buisness else where but what's the point when buisness is already good, and more importantly right next door. Same thing implies with the U.S.


If we're sending off raw materials still, where's the advantage?

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
This whole thing where everything orbits around the U.S. really needs to stop.


Agreed! Let's diversify our customer base and let's tax raw, unprocessed materials going out of the country.

   



Arrow @ Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:48 pm

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:
yeah you know what, your right the USA caused the rise of Nazi Germany. I dont know how I never saw this, You are so enlightening!
:lol:


No, your corporations in pursuit of the almighty fuckin' buck FACILITATED it's continuation as well as the most reprehensible elements of its existence! Is that clear enough you sarcastic MF? Probably not, in the great scheme of things, yer just that thick.

Nonetheless, your country is predicated on many many illusions, the likes of which would never occur to the likes of you.

Oh and BTW?



Learn to spell, ya gramatically-challenged mook!

   



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