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I don't know what part of ambiguous, vague and irritating you don't understand. You are so good at it!, "that same wedge is going to change direction and deliberately driven between their legs soon..." being a prime example of your saying something totally meaningless in hopes of eliciting a tirade.

   

Well that explains everything. You weren't taught how to add or read.

   

People who burn or otherwise deface a flag are carrying out a symbolic act that has been used in peaceful protests for as long as there have been peaceful protests. I realise that the idea of peaceful protest offends some people, Roc, but that is no excuse for them not learning the language.



Except how many of the speeches made by the left were televised? They showed the last line of Naomi Klein's speech on NewsWorld. That's all. Do ya think even that will make it on American television? Not bloody likely. From what Johnny has described they showed the part of the protest most likely to piss off Republicans.



We have a long history of public protest in this country, Human...peaceful and not, although historically most of the violence has been instigated by the police (Winnipeg Strike, Regina Riot, Quebec City). If you don;t like seeing protestors on the streets, then you are in the wrong country.



Funny, I saw a lot of peaceful people practicing their democratic right to dissent through demonstration. I'm not sure what you saw, but I'm pretty sure you were afraid to really look.

   

What does burning the US flag and defacing it have to do with Bush or his policies, which is what people are protesting? I have no problems with peaceful protest, and sure, burning/defacing the flag is peaceful, but I feel like it distorts the message and makes it look like Canadians have a problem with the US in general, and not the government. That flag doesn't represent our government, but our people, from George Bush, to michael moore, to any liberal or conservative, and burning it is like saying fuck you to every American, because it represents all of us. These flag burners and defacers make the liberal party look anti-american, and gives us people who are liberal on some policies a bad name. Where do you think all the "liberals are anti-american" stuff comes from? Probably from the fact that they burn flags and deface them. That flag represents more than the George Bush. That flag is a representation of me and my country, which, politics aside, I still enjoy, and burning it doesn't come off like you don't agree with Bush, it comes off like you are saying fuck the US, because that flag represents my country and nationality.



Which makes better news, a flag burning/defacing, or people saying thing? If liberals would get their act together and control their emotions, while still getting out their message, they would be welcomed a whole lot better. When they deface flags and such, it just fuels ammunition for the republican right, which is what I thought liberals are against? Why shoot ourselves in the foot? What needs to be understood is the fact that alot of people on the other side love the US, and when they see a certain group burning or defacing flags, it's hard for them to be like "oh wow, I should really follow that group." These people who just spew anti-americanism by ruining flags and doing other non-factual things are not advancing liberal causes at all.



I myself saw plenty of peaceful protesters in the Canadian protest, but I also saw mohawk wearing, flag defacing protesters who you know are the ones that will get the most attention, and will ruin liberals image abroad. Canada, being a liberal nation, has an effect on liberals in the US, and when people deface flags in your protest and look unruly, it will be most of what is played in the US. Now, everyone should be able to wear what they like, but I don't see any point in defacing a flag that represents ALL Americans when really they only have a problem with American government policies. I have no problem with people with mohawks, but it just so happens that those people are usually the most outrageous politically, and probably get alot of their influences from bands like Anti-flag . The conservatives win because they show an adult attitude towards subjects. Waving around defaced flags and shouting "fuck the US" isn't going to win any new supporters. I remember watching the protest in New York on C-Span, and a republican was on the side asking people to debate issues and you know how the liberals treated him? Guy comes up to him waving his middle finger saying "fuck you" constantly at the guy who just wanted to have a debate with the man on issues. Saw this MANY times. I think liberals need to have a new approach to matters, or they are going to be labeled hateful bigots(as they label conservatives).

Also, as it can be noted, Republicans have been guilty of doing things to liberals like the guy was treated on C-SPAN, but they do it far less, and I think the reason alot of Americans went out to vote for them was because their group of supports seem to portray more of a love for America than the liberal supports do. This is not saying that liberals don't love the US, this is saying that those bad apples in the liberal party deface flags and usually show alot of hatred for the US, which ruins the liberal causes....

When the million man march happened, did you see them burning flags and saying "fuck the US"? No, they took a mature approach to it and won over people on the other side. Did you see martin Luther King carrying around defaced flags? Nope. All the best protest, and most effective ones, are done when not pissing people off, and acting with reason and great restraint.

   

That flag represents the US to the rest of the world. So does Bush. We aren;t allowed to burn Bush though...not only is it violent, but the Christian right would twist it into some kind of bizarre biblical sign or something.



We tried that for years. It led to some good parties, but it didn't get the message out.



Or inspire even more people to take to the streets in Europe where the governments are more likely to be influenced to oppose Bush.

   

So what? Burn Bush picture, make an effigy, make dolls that say war criminal on them, or dolls with bush in handcuffs. Defacing and Burning flags is a big "fuck you" to Americans. Why say fuck you to Americans, when you can get your message accross alot more clearly by just showing Bush? Bush represents the US government, which represents corporate interest and only half the US population. The Flag represents the whole US population and country itself.



I don't think defacing the flag is getting an real messages out either. When someone sees a defaced/burnt flag, they don't suddenly think "man, gay marriage should be legalized" or "damn, we need to get out of Iraq"....they become offended and get pissed that people from another country are burning the flag that represents their loved homeland.




People are already in the streets in Europe and most likely will do so whenever Bush visits. I don't see what that has to do with the bad image that defacing the flag and anti-american lines like "fuck the US" have to do with it though. Hate my governments policies, push a message against them, but don't yell Fuck You at me for something I'm not a part of. I voted, tried to change things, and now I have people from another country defacing what I stand for. I stood for alot of those peoples ideas, and this is the thanks I get? A representation of my nationality defaced? You hate Bush, hate his policies, burn a doll of him or something, but I don't see a need to offend people who were on your side.

   

Nothing "symbolic" about it. The message is clear; that is "screw you."

   

That's the same message the US has been broadcasting to the world for the last four years, Roc. Don't like getting it back? Screw you.



We do that too sometimes, Johnny. The thing is that Bush was just re-elected. That reflects badly on your country's judgement.



No, but the smart ones think, "Why are these people so angry with us?" If they seek the answer to that question honestly and forthrightly, they learn the rest.



Maybe they think that American girls are pretty and are looking for a date with them. I can't explain things that you refuse to understand, Johnny. If you look honestly at why these people are so angry with your president and your country, you will start looking at that flag a lot differently though.

   

Oh really? The "US?" I thought this was a hate Bush thing? Not a "US" thing?

So you would agree that all this hate Bush biz is actually a hate America thing.

Thanks, you have proved my point.

   

To me the flag represents alot more than some idiot presidents policy. The flag represents World War 2 Vets who died for my country, the flag represents the coming together of the 13 colonies to form what is now my country, and the flag represents tons of American things from Movies made by Americans to scientific advances by Americans to the aid given by Americans to other countries. The flag also represents the 50 or whatever million people who didn't vote for bush. Instead of making people think "why are these people angry at us" how about you make it nice and clear: People from other countries are angry because of Bush. When you burn a flag, that represents everything American, you aren't giving a message that you just disagree with US government policies, you are giving a message that you dislike all things American, so much that you would burn or deface their flag, a flag which stands for everything American.

   

People aren't just mad because of Bush though, they are mad because of US foreign policy over the last century or so. Bush has just done everything possible to distill those feelings into outright rebellion. Before Bush there was always hope that the US would turn itself around and actually lead the world. That hope is gone now.

   

It's not the whole US though who's making those policies, it's the government. Surely you know there's a difference between the 2? Also, a small majority elected Bush, and that was mainly because alot of people who would have voted Kerry didn't come out. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to who have been like "fuck Bush" and then when I ask if they vote they say "oh, I didn't have the time, I was too busy." Our flag represents those people, and the half that wanted change and an end to Bush. Burning our flag or defacing it is saying fuck you to them just as much as to Bush. Why not make it clear and say "fuck you US government" and burn replica white houses or something? That would get the message accross that you are fed up with the US government. All that burning American flags does is make Americans think you hate the US, and that the government doesn't matter. If you say that burning that you are burning the flag because of the government, and it's the governments fault that you hate americans, well then I suppose it's putins fault that someone hates you, right?

   

The word 'oxymoronic' springs to mind. A majority of Yanks elected him or the election was rigged; one or the other.

   

Yeah, sling your insults all you want. Like I've said, you are what's wrong with politics. 2/3 of the population would be a large majority. When you look at the numbers, it was a small majority. I wish I could think as black and white as you. Do you feel proud of having such a limited point of view. It's either this, or that, right? Or maybe the Kerry voters didn't come out and vote as much as Bush supporters did. Oh wait, that can't be possible, because according to your vast intelligence, it's either one thing or the other, no inbetweens, right?

   

That doesn;t matter though, Johnny. The fact is that the American people re-elected Bush. They said, in effect, "We don't care what the world thinks."

Well for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

We still welcome Americans up here in Canada, Johnny. Many have expressed interest in coming here. If they want to become Canadians they are welcome. If they want Canada to become George Bush's Amerika, they are not.

   

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