Ontario announces Windsor-Toronto High-Speed Rail line
bootlegga @ Sat May 20, 2017 7:19 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Just looking at it I don't see where the ridership is going to come from to justify $20bn in spending and then whatever subsidies are required to follow.
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
The only way Toronto-Windsor makes sense is if it links to a US line, but given the economic situation, I doubt anyone is planning on building HST to Detroit.
$20 billion also seems like an awful lot, even with land acquisition - they project an Edmonton-Calgary line would run about $5 billion, and it's roughly the same length.
Coach85 @ Sat May 20, 2017 5:46 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Coach85 Coach85:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Another empty trolling post.
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
A very general statement with very little fact behind it.
To say that wait times have improved as a whole, does not address the wait times for a variety of procedures.
Can you direct me to some documentation that shows the improvement in wait times?
Links:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/sho ... -1.3161035
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglob ... vice%3Damp
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/hea ... -1.3171718
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/mos ... -1.3343526
Yikes, did you read those links?
Wait times for some things have improved compared to 2011-12, etc. Looking back further, your claims appear to be false. In fact, they completely contradict what you said.
For example:
$1:
A survey by the Fraser Institute found a median wait of 20 weeks for “medically necessary” treatments and procedures in 2016 – the longest-recorded wait time since the think tank began tracking wait times.
That’s more than double the wait times reported in 1993, when the right-leaning think tank began tracking the issue in Canada.
That’s more than double the wait times reported in 1993, when the right-leaning think tank began tracking the issue in Canada.
and
$1:
At the national level, it found the median wait time from referral to treatment was 18.3 weeks, almost the same as the 18.2 weeks recorded in 2014, but almost double the 9.3 weeks recorded in 1993 when the survey began.
2016 was in the books for having some of the largest wait times in history for various procedures.
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
Both you and Ontario should be asking themselves, with new revenue tools like the health care premium, how have we allowed wait times to double since 1993?
herbie @ Sat May 20, 2017 7:34 pm
$1:
$20 billion also seems like an awful lot, even with land acquisition - they project an Edmonton-Calgary line would run about $5 billion, and it's roughly the same length.
Wow. Let Christie Clark build it, she can barely get across the Fraser River for $5 billion......
Sunnyways @ Wed May 24, 2017 3:02 pm
As usual, we are long on aspiration, short on delivery. The TCH is another example, an imposing name for a hodgepodge of highways across the country that have little in common and do not reach US or UK standards. We don't take east-west links very seriously here. They should be a national priority.
BeaverFever @ Wed May 24, 2017 3:28 pm
Coach85 Coach85:
Yikes, did you read those links?
Wait times for some things have improved compared to 2011-12, etc. Looking back further, your claims appear to be false. In fact, they completely contradict what you said.
For example:
$1:
A survey by the Fraser Institute found a median wait of 20 weeks for “medically necessary” treatments and procedures in 2016 – the longest-recorded wait time since the think tank began tracking wait times.
That’s more than double the wait times reported in 1993, when the right-leaning think tank began tracking the issue in Canada.
That’s more than double the wait times reported in 1993, when the right-leaning think tank began tracking the issue in Canada.
and
$1:
At the national level, it found the median wait time from referral to treatment was 18.3 weeks, almost the same as the 18.2 weeks recorded in 2014, but almost double the 9.3 weeks recorded in 1993 when the survey began.
2016 was in the books for having some of the largest wait times in history for various procedures.
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
Both you and Ontario should be asking themselves, with new revenue tools like the health care premium, how have we allowed wait times to double since 1993?
I think you're confusing national statistics with Ontario statistics, e.g. Nowhere does it say Ontario's wait times doubled since 93
Coach85 @ Wed May 24, 2017 5:57 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I think you're confusing national statistics with Ontario statistics, e.g. Nowhere does it say Ontario's wait times doubled since 93
And I think you're confusing fact with blind partisanship.
I have to give you credit. When you support a party, you support that party at all costs. I admire your dedication to the cause. You really should be a little more open-minded. Perhaps it'll come with age.
You, sir, opted to post a handful of articles you didn't read in full. If you had, you would have understood that they completely refute your point.
You may be correct, Ontario didn't exactly double, but it came close.
In 1993, the average time from GP to treatment was 9.1 weeks. Today, it's 15.6 weeks. Wait times under the previous Conservative government were far better.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/d ... a-2016.pdf
Page 9.
In fact, if you look at the report, the same one included in one of the articles you posted, you'll notice that wait times for most things in Ontario have increased from 2014 to 2016.
With all due respect, try putting your bias aside and see the big picture and how this affects all Ontarians. Leave politics out of it.
BeaverFever @ Wed May 24, 2017 6:38 pm
I'm curious as to what year you think the Conservatives came in to office ( hint: after 1993).
Coach85 @ Wed May 24, 2017 7:42 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I'm curious as to what year you think the Conservatives came in to office ( hint: after 1993).
I'm fully aware of when they came into power and had you read anything beyond the headlines in the articles you referenced, you'd know how false your claim was; not-picking aside.
While the data we referenced above begins at 1993, there's a lot of data available on this subject for the years following.
It's ok to be wrong. Being able to admit you were wrong is a statement of character.
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")
N_Fiddledog @ Wed May 24, 2017 8:08 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I'm curious as to what year you think the Conservatives came in to office ( hint: after 1993).
1995 right? Before that it was was the NDP for 2 years after the 1993 mentioned. Just 2 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... of_Ontario
What was your point again? I assume you're sticking to it. Go ahead, double down. This is getting fun to watch.
BeaverFever @ Thu May 25, 2017 4:45 am
Coach85 Coach85:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I'm curious as to what year you think the Conservatives came in to office ( hint: after 1993).
I'm fully aware of when they came into power and had you read anything beyond the headlines in the articles you referenced, you'd know how false your claim was; not-picking aside.
While the data we referenced above begins at 1993, there's a lot of data available on this subject for the years following.
It's ok to be wrong. Being able to admit you were wrong is a statement of character.
So to judge whether the Liberals made wait times better or worse you measure how it's changed from the time they took office, not from 2 years before their predecessor took office.
Wait times got worse during the Harris/Eves years and have improved since. Regardless of whether 1993 was a good year or a d year to use as a baseline, by all measurements, Ontario's wait times are better than any other province and that's just a fact you'll have to accept. The province's current wait time strategy uses 2005 as a baseline comparator year (which is the year the strategy was released) and the province exceeds target for most procedures.
Coach85 @ Thu May 25, 2017 4:57 am
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Coach85 Coach85:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
I'm curious as to what year you think the Conservatives came in to office ( hint: after 1993).
I'm fully aware of when they came into power and had you read anything beyond the headlines in the articles you referenced, you'd know how false your claim was; not-picking aside.
While the data we referenced above begins at 1993, there's a lot of data available on this subject for the years following.
It's ok to be wrong. Being able to admit you were wrong is a statement of character.
So to judge whether the Liberals made wait times better or worse you measure how it's changed from the time they took office, not from 2 years before their predecessor took office.
Wait times got worse during the Harris/Eves years and have improved since. Regardless of whether 1993 was a good year or a d year to use as a baseline, by all measurements, Ontario's wait times are better than any other province and that's just a fact you'll have to accept. The province's current wait time strategy uses 2005 as a baseline comparator year (which is the year the strategy was released) and the province exceeds target for most procedures.
It's time for you to step to the plate.
Please provide documentation to prove that wait times in Ontario were the worst in Canada under the previous government.
N_Fiddledog @ Thu May 25, 2017 9:47 am
Yeah...I mean he posted all those links. You'd think he'd at least have a quote.
Go ahead Beave. Impress us...
![[popcorn]](./images/smilies/popcorn.gif "Eating Popcorn")
BeaverFever @ Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am
An interesting read if you want insight into all the technicalities of the Ontario Wait Time strategy:
$1:
Healthcare Quarterly, 12(Sp) May 2009: 8-15.doi:10.12927/hcq.2009.20744
The Times They Are A-Changing: What Worked and What We Learned in Deploying Ontario's Wait Time Information System
....How many days would you be comfortable waiting if you needed cancer surgery? What would you do if someone, not as medically urgent, was able to receive an MRI or CT scan before you? Would you want to know if you could wait less time for treatment at another location or with another clinician? These are some of the dilemmas facing patients and our health system when dealing with the issue of wait times.
To address these pressing concerns, in the fall of 2004, Ontario launched its Wait Time Strategy. Two years later, Collins-Nakai et al. (2006) reported that Ontario had moved "from being a laggard to a leader" with respect to wait times. This article summarizes Ontario's work to date to improve access to care, including reviewing the need, action taken and the emerging results. Much can be learned and leveraged from the experiences described in this article and throughout this issue. They can serve as an important starting point for further discussion, improvement and action, for initiatives big and small, by all types of organizations and jurisdictions.
....Wait Times in Ontario
Prior to 2004, Ontario was falling significantly behind in addressing the issue of access to care. Clinicians were managing patient wait lists on paper, in their own offices, without provincial or clinical standards, as these had yet to be established. Most hospitals were unaware of who was waiting for which service. System managers had no tangible data to identify provincial or regional trends and issues and, therefore, no means to incite improved performance. The provincial government had no objective insight into one of the most pressing public issues of the day. And the public had no reliable information to hold their government accountable for improvements.
In September 2004, with support from Premier Dalton McGuinty and the former Minister for Health and Long-Term Care, George Smitherman, the then Associate Deputy Minister for Health and Long-Term Care, Hugh MacLeod, led Ontario on an ambitious healthcare transformation agenda. The focus on improving access to care became an important component of a broad portfolio of initiatives to transform the province's health system. A Lead for Access to Services and Wait Times was quickly found in Dr. Alan Hudson and shortly thereafter, in November 2004, Ontario's Wait Time Strategy (hereafter "the strategy") was launched (Trypuc et al., 2006b).
...The Emerging Results
In a short period of time, change is evident on a number of fronts. First and foremost, wait times in Ontario are decreasing with results in the initial five areas of care, showing that patients are receiving treatment faster.
Not only are wait times down in these areas, but the number of surgeries and MRI/CT scans being performed are up. Hospitals have been able to use the wait time information that is now available to find efficiencies to get more people treated. LHINs and the MOHLTC have also been able to use the information to make better decisions around resource allocation and system planning.
Analysis of wait time data (from August/September 2005 to February 2009) shows that Ontarians waited less time between the decision to treat and the actual treatment using the 90th percentile as the measure of wait time (i.e., the point at which 90% of patients received their treatment). More importantly, wait times are also moving closer to the provincial access targets developed by the Clinical Expert Panels. Figure 3 shows the impact to procedures, using fiscal 2003-2004 as the baseline year.
....
The Times They Are A-Changing: What Worked and What We Learned in Deploying Ontario's Wait Time Information System
....How many days would you be comfortable waiting if you needed cancer surgery? What would you do if someone, not as medically urgent, was able to receive an MRI or CT scan before you? Would you want to know if you could wait less time for treatment at another location or with another clinician? These are some of the dilemmas facing patients and our health system when dealing with the issue of wait times.
To address these pressing concerns, in the fall of 2004, Ontario launched its Wait Time Strategy. Two years later, Collins-Nakai et al. (2006) reported that Ontario had moved "from being a laggard to a leader" with respect to wait times. This article summarizes Ontario's work to date to improve access to care, including reviewing the need, action taken and the emerging results. Much can be learned and leveraged from the experiences described in this article and throughout this issue. They can serve as an important starting point for further discussion, improvement and action, for initiatives big and small, by all types of organizations and jurisdictions.
....Wait Times in Ontario
Prior to 2004, Ontario was falling significantly behind in addressing the issue of access to care. Clinicians were managing patient wait lists on paper, in their own offices, without provincial or clinical standards, as these had yet to be established. Most hospitals were unaware of who was waiting for which service. System managers had no tangible data to identify provincial or regional trends and issues and, therefore, no means to incite improved performance. The provincial government had no objective insight into one of the most pressing public issues of the day. And the public had no reliable information to hold their government accountable for improvements.
In September 2004, with support from Premier Dalton McGuinty and the former Minister for Health and Long-Term Care, George Smitherman, the then Associate Deputy Minister for Health and Long-Term Care, Hugh MacLeod, led Ontario on an ambitious healthcare transformation agenda. The focus on improving access to care became an important component of a broad portfolio of initiatives to transform the province's health system. A Lead for Access to Services and Wait Times was quickly found in Dr. Alan Hudson and shortly thereafter, in November 2004, Ontario's Wait Time Strategy (hereafter "the strategy") was launched (Trypuc et al., 2006b).
...The Emerging Results
In a short period of time, change is evident on a number of fronts. First and foremost, wait times in Ontario are decreasing with results in the initial five areas of care, showing that patients are receiving treatment faster.
Not only are wait times down in these areas, but the number of surgeries and MRI/CT scans being performed are up. Hospitals have been able to use the wait time information that is now available to find efficiencies to get more people treated. LHINs and the MOHLTC have also been able to use the information to make better decisions around resource allocation and system planning.
Analysis of wait time data (from August/September 2005 to February 2009) shows that Ontarians waited less time between the decision to treat and the actual treatment using the 90th percentile as the measure of wait time (i.e., the point at which 90% of patients received their treatment). More importantly, wait times are also moving closer to the provincial access targets developed by the Clinical Expert Panels. Figure 3 shows the impact to procedures, using fiscal 2003-2004 as the baseline year.
....
http://www.longwoods.com/content/20744
See chart om pg 22 of the following PDF:
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/d ... canada.pdf
$1:
Fact check: McGuinty on wait times
During the Ontario election debate, Liberal leader Dalton McGuinty defended his government’s record on health care.
What he said:
“We now have the shortest wait times in the country. Hips and knees and MRIs and CTs, cancer and cataract care, we have the shortest wait times in the country.”
How true is this?
“In general, he is correct,” said Francesca Grosso, a former director of policy to the Ontario Minister of Health and Long Term Care, and co-author of the book “Navigating Canada’s Health Care, a User Guide to the Canadian Health Care System.”
....
During the Ontario election debate, Liberal leader Dalton McGuinty defended his government’s record on health care.
What he said:
“We now have the shortest wait times in the country. Hips and knees and MRIs and CTs, cancer and cataract care, we have the shortest wait times in the country.”
How true is this?
“In general, he is correct,” said Francesca Grosso, a former director of policy to the Ontario Minister of Health and Long Term Care, and co-author of the book “Navigating Canada’s Health Care, a User Guide to the Canadian Health Care System.”
....
http://ontariocfa.com/2011/09/28/fact-c ... ait-times/
Coach85 @ Thu May 25, 2017 12:15 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Thanks.
Using that graph, you have proven yourself wrong.
To remind you again of your statement:
$1:
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
Ontario's current wait times are currently the best in Canada. However, to claim that we went from worst-to-first is simply false.
Ontario has made strides, no doubt. Better management of records, better facilities, improved wait times, etc. Then again, that should be expected with the health care premium that has injected cash into the system. More cash into the health care system is never a bad thing.
Ironically enough, your final article makes an interesting point:
$1:
However, she said that McGuinty might not be able to take credit for Ontario’s relatively low wait times. “These things were accomplished with federal dollars earmarked to reduce wait times in those areas. Obviously due to its population Ontario was the recipient of more money,” she said.
Federal dollars that came from a Conservative federal government. I suspect we won't see you giving any praise to our former PM on this one.
N_Fiddledog @ Thu May 25, 2017 2:04 pm
Let's double check that.
So the NDP held power in 1993. The Conservatives took over in 95. And the liberals under McGuinty took over from them in 2003. He passed the torch to Kathy in 2013.
So now let's look at Beave's graph of Ontario wait times:
Hmmm... so as the self-designated referee I'm saying too close to call.
However...
Those graphs are 8 years old. Here's a more recent claim from the same source.
$1:
Ontario had the shortest wait times at 15.6 weeks, but up from 14.2 weeks in 2015.
So yes Ontario is doing slightly less shitty with wait times than all other provinces, but no they did not improve on the wait times Ontario enjoyed under the Conservatives.
(Also Ontario's wait times were nowhere near the worst in the country under the Conservatives.)