1 Oct 2017: Catalonia Independence or start of civil war?
martin14 @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:44 am
We were heard in Europe...
We have earned the right....
Catalonia should become...
The new King of Catalonia.. 
BartSimpson @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am
martin14 martin14:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Catalonia is expected to declare independence within the next hour.
Sorry Bart, they are going to choke it and dodge.
The EU called.
Yup.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 93346.html
$1:
Catalonia suspends declaration of independence from Spain
martin14 @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:46 pm
In a few days, there will be 'calls' for 'negotiations', and
'mediation' from the EU, and 'revisting' the 2006 deal, which is also
unconstitutional.
Spain will have to change its constitution for Catalan to have real
referendum. Good luck with that, not going to happen with Rajoy in charge.
Even just talking about it is a loss for the Feds, because then they have to acknowledge separation could happen.
They won't be happy.
I predict lots of hot air, with very few if any results.
BartSimpson @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:24 pm
Sadly, the Catalans have now lost their moment.
Sunnyways @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:01 pm
Most countries will face this situation sooner or later. Borders are not eternal (look at a map of Europe c.1900) and we already know there is a way of changing them peacefully. Secession is a lot of trouble for everybody but a region should have some way of exiting if it really wants to. The EU needs to prepare better for next time as well.
Sunnyways @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:31 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
But doesn't indissolubility implicitly preclude secession?
And in the Charter of Canada there's this language:
$1:
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
Does this mean that only people who believe in God can be Canadians? You could read it that way if you wanted to.
The term 'indissoluble' in the Spanish Constitution is part of the preamble. It is a goal of the document to preserve the Spanish nation. It is not the binding part of it anymore than the first part of the Charter is binding.
And what about the UK? Can they be forced to stay in the EU? Can the EU justify using military force to keep a member nation part of the EU?
The indissolubility of a state is a much easier concept to understand and enforce than the supremacy of God which IMO is more of a motherhood and apple pie kinda thing.
As for the UK, the fact that there was never a question of the EU prohibiting their Brexit plebiscite/referendum or attempting to force them to stay shows how much sovereignty all nations retain in the EU.
martin14 @ Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:58 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Sadly, the Catalans have now lost their moment.
IMHO, it never had a chance.
It still doesn't.
Catalan leaving Spain (and the EU) would be such a disaster,
it will be prevented at all costs.
Catalan will leave violently, or not at all.
And I don't see the bloodlust for that.
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
Most countries will face this situation sooner or later. Borders are not eternal (look at a map of Europe c.1900) and we already know there is a way of changing them peacefully.
Every border change in Europe from 1848-1945 and till today
is a direct result of war.
Except Czechoslovakia and Germany, neither of which were done
by a vote.
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
As for the UK, the fact that there was never a question of the EU prohibiting their Brexit plebiscite/referendum or attempting to force them to stay shows how much sovereignty all nations retain in the EU.
Other countries have tried to make choices against the EU,
all were coerced into reversing the decision.
And Brexit is by no means finished.
You can bank on this, the EU will use every trick in the book
to prevent Brexit.
Sunnyways @ Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:04 am
martin14 martin14:
Every border change in Europe from 1848-1945 and till today
is a direct result of war.
Except Czechoslovakia and Germany, neither of which were done
by a vote.
We don't need to be stuck in the dreary paradigms of the past. There is such a thing as human progress. Who would have predicted 70 years of peace between France and Germany in 1945? The EU and NATO, supranational organizations, helped make that possible.
The Scottish vote could have led to a separate country without any war being necessary. You would concede that much? Borders WILL change and we have the tools now to make such changes peacefully. Why would any sane person reject that?
The EU cannot stop Brexit but they can make the Brits face the cost of a hard Brexit if they are unreasonable about it.
martin14 @ Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:18 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
martin14 martin14:
Every border change in Europe from 1848-1945 and till today
is a direct result of war.
Except Czechoslovakia and Germany, neither of which were done
by a vote.
We don't need to be stuck in the dreary paradigms of the past.
Yeah, I know, historical facts just suck.
You should prepare yourself, I got more historical facts for you.
Sorry about that.
$1:
peace between France and Germany in 1945? The EU and NATO, supranational organizations, helped make that possible.
Bull.
Big bull.
The EU as a supranational Commie dictatorship did not exist before
the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.
Just in time to do nothing around the self destruction of Yugoslavia.
It was the US (and us, a little) who sorted that out.
Peace in Europe ? not the EU. Not Serbia in 1999. That was the US, again.
NATO ?
Maybe, but considering who pays the majority of the NATO bills,
I'll make a strong case peace in Europe since 1945 is down to two countries.
One of them is the United States of America.
The other ?
The Soviet Union.
$1:
The Scottish vote could have led to a separate country without any war being necessary. You would concede that much? Borders WILL change and we have the tools now to make such changes peacefully. Why would any sane person reject that?
I'll concede it would have been the first time something was done with a vote
since the Saar voted to rejoin Germany in 1935.
Spain is not post war France, administering occupied territory.
Catalonia has been part of Spain since the Reconquista.
$1:
The EU cannot stop Brexit but they can make the Brits face the cost of a hard Brexit if they are unreasonable about it.
It is not the Brits being unreasonable.
The EU has not begun it's full terror campaign on the UK yet.
Just wait, another 6-8 months, then you'll see some fun.
They will do what they can to collapse the Tory government and force an election, then support Labour.. openly.
Sunnyways @ Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:02 pm
$1:
Every border change in Europe from 1848-1945 and till today
is a direct result of war.
Except Czechoslovakia and Germany, neither of which were done
by a vote.
is a direct result of war.
Except Czechoslovakia and Germany, neither of which were done
by a vote.
Was the Scottish referendum an unwelcome event for you?
$1:
Bull.
Big bull.
The EU as a supranational Commie dictatorship did not exist before
the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.
Sorry, by 'EU' I was referring to all the supranational EU-like post-war organizations in Europe e.g. the EEC, and the Coal and Steel Community:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea ... _Community
$1:
I'll concede it would have been the first time something was done with a vote
since the Saar voted to rejoin Germany in 1935.
Spain is not post war France, administering occupied territory.
So no border changes without wars? Is that what you want? For hundreds of years, or perhaps forever? That's a rather bleak scenario for the rest of us.
$1:
It is not the Brits being unreasonable.
The EU has not begun it's full terror campaign on the UK yet.
The EU has not begun it's full terror campaign on the UK yet.
Terror campaign? Will we see German police assaulting women in London?
martin14 @ Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:38 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
Was the Scottish referendum an unwelcome event for you?
No.
But it's an exception, not the rule.
Only the historically ignorant think Europe is all freedom
and democracy now.
$1:
Sorry, by 'EU' I was referring to all the supranational EU-like post-war organizations in Europe e.g. the EEC, and the Coal and Steel Community
Yeah, no one ever figures that out.
The ECSC was setup to eliminate competition for coal and steel resources,
to stop the French from their continued occupation of the Saar (again),
and their efforts to take the Ruhr out of a federal Germany.
Did you know the French had rights for mining coal in the Saarland
until the 80's ?
Eliminating competition in the coal and steel markets reduced the
abilities of the six to control their own resources, especially Germany.
Just ask yourself, what do you make with coal and steel, and where is the
coal, and then you understand the reasoning behind it.
$1:
So no border changes without wars? Is that what you want? For hundreds of years, or perhaps forever? That's a rather bleak scenario for the rest of us.
It is not the European norm to change borders without war.
Catalonia has been Spain since the Kingdom of Aragon married into
the Kingdom of Castile.
$1:
Terror campaign? Will we see German police assaulting women in London?
Financial.
Travel.
Customs and Borders.
Northern Ireland.
stratos @ Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:13 pm
$1:
The EU cannot stop Brexit but they can make the Brits face the cost of a hard Brexit if they are unreasonable about it.
So you are saying the EU will wage economic war.
DrCaleb @ Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:02 am
stratos stratos:
$1:
The EU cannot stop Brexit but they can make the Brits face the cost of a hard Brexit if they are unreasonable about it.
So you are saying the EU will wage economic war.
It will be. The EU already does things for member countries as a whole, so they don't have to do it alone. Vehicle safety standards, food safety, drug safety . . . Britain will have to to these things alone, and have them approved by the EU so they can be sold in the EU.
Brexit will not be cheap.
BartSimpson @ Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:26 am
Britain has stood alone against Europe before. If the EU wants an economic war with the UK they might want to consider that the UK actually has a friend in the White House right now who correctly sees the EU as a potential adversary for the US.
Bottom line is that in a pissing war between the EU and the UK I expect Trump to side with the UK and to tell the EU to go fEUck themselves.
martin14 @ Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:54 am
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
It will be. The EU already does things for member countries as a whole, so they don't have to do it alone. Vehicle safety standards, food safety, drug safety . . . Britain will have to to these things alone, and have them approved by the EU so they can be sold in the EU.
Brexit will not be cheap.
Brexit will not be cheap.
Things like vehicle standards are worldwide now, the Brits can sign up to
EU food and drug policy without being members of the EU.
I imagine they will cooperate with lots of EU agencies.
The ONLY good thing the EU has done is bring cellphone prices
down and down, and cut the roaming rates the companies can charge.
That's it.