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I would say that both are equally ignorant comments to make. Both make vast generalisations about populations base on preconceived notions.

   

Let me then restate in a politically-correct manner:

"Move to Alabama where most people are not racist but many are, and you will find likely find more people sympathetic to your point of view."

   

Or how about move anywhere else. We're trying to have a civilization here.

   

What a load of crap. I've worked with a good number of native people. Mostly very good people. What made them good is that the had adopted the "white man's" way of living. Go to work, pay your taxes, no special deals. They weren't reserve Indians, is the difference. Natives of reserves, my experience has been far less positive. Many very angry, fucked up people there who could turn on you in a heartbeat. But even there it's not as if everybody on a reserve is the same. The bad ones just seen to drown out the good ones.

   

I think that touches to the heart of the issue right there. Like many American Blacks who celebrate the "ghetto" culture, not only do the "bad" Reserve Indians refuse to conform to the rules and values of the white man's world, they seem to deliberately pursue the direct opposite values.

But even those vices are from the "white man's" world. It's not as if FN people were abusing drugs and alcohol and living on state entitlments before the Europeans arrived. So even though some "bad" reserve Indians may reject ideas of getting a job, paying taxes, etc. as giving in to the white man's world, what they don't realize is that selling drugs, rolling in a street gangs, etc is doing exactly that. They've just chosen to embrace the dark side of "white" society.

   

Native pathologies are as much a result of their own traditional tribalism and clannism as it is anything they learned from the whites. Favouring your buddies and pals while not giving a toss about the community as a whole, which is unfortunately typical to the native power structure on too many of the reserves, isn't a behaviour unique only to white people. It's a human behaviour and everyone does it everywhere.

   

Funny when someone falls off that high horse.



Like many people, you're a closet racist and bigot and you do your best to keep your thoughts within. You let a little of that slip with your Alamaba comment.



Just step back from the race card for a second. Breathe.....

Step back and look at the numerous problems that exist within reserves all over this Country. Fraud, theft, corruption, the list goes on. My feelings aren't based on interaction with a handful of people. In fact, I've met some great Native people during my time on a reserve and worked with some as well. This isn't an opinion formed in an ivory tower without any interaction.

The way Natives treat their own people is a disgrace. The corruption within Bands all over Canada is outrageous and anyone who dares to challenge the finances of a Band are labelled racist, bigot, etc. The Natives who have left the reserves have thrown their hands up and given up trying to make changes.

I can't stand the way they treat each other (more so the ones on reserves), the fact that they steal from one another, that they let one another live in squalor and generally the fact that Natives in Canada don't take ownership of their own problems within their own communities.

It's never their fault, it's always the fault of the Government of Canada.

   

@Beaver: I think maybe you're being a bit too idyllic about native society in the past. But sure, what we are seeing are the effects of us invading and mistreating them. I recognize that. Where I differ is what to do about it. Even there, I'm all for generous social assistance to people to help them improve their lives if possible, and giving them some minimum standard of living if not. I just don't want those programs to be race based, but open to anybody that needs help.

   

You're the one who played the race card by first suggesting you knew the motives of these 9 people because you had negative experiences with others of the same race. You even said you "detest" Natives. Only now are you back-peddaling, and only ever so slightly.

How do you know these 9 natives out in Manitoba aren't like some of the "great Native people" you met in the past? I'm sure if one of those great people had their property damaged by someone else, they would sue the party responsible. I'm sure you would sue too. Of course a billion dollars is not representative of their losses or a reasonable amount for punitive or hardship, but this would be the first lawsuit in history where the plaintiff sued for a reasonable amount, sine the eventual settlement (if any) is always so much less than the initital claim.

I don't disagree that social problems and their attendant behaviours are rampant on Reserves, as they are in ethnic ghettoes and all-white trailer parks all over the world. I don't disagree that some, many or even most of the people who come from such a community may become so socialized to those living conditions, they a)won't help themselves if they ever are given a resonable chance of success or b) even worse, come to actively embrace anti-social attitudes that only serve to entrench and reinforce their depraved living conditions.

Finally, I'm not saying it's all the fault of the government of Canada, you can only help someone so much and then those individuals have to help themselves. Neither the goverment nor the FN leaders, have done anything to make progress. Rather, they've developed an incestuous relationship with eachother where both benefit from the status quo, at the expense of the FN population.

   

How so?

   

Well, Thanos' post gives you one reason. Slavery among Natives is another. I doubt they had an indolent underclass, but I bet they had an indolent upperclass.

Bill Wilson, a local native leader, wrote about how the white man has enslaved the red one. In the same essay, he wrote about how his grandfather would not let his slaves perform the more delicate, skilled work around the camp. Sounds actually like they had some sullen, unmotivated people around pre-contact as well.

Because they were hunter-gatherers, wars of conquest were not very common. But, the Haida terrified the whole west coast with their raids for booty. Extorting tribute wasn't unknown to pre-contact Natives either. They would go in their war canoes and raid the next village, take the plunder they wanted. They would take the strongest enemy men and cut their hamstrings to they couldn't run away. Then they would make these men paddle to the next village, throw them overboard and then repeat the process with this village. I don't think that's any better than we treated them.

   

Not back peddling at all, just clarifying; and the term was 'despise'.



I don't, but the odds are that these people don't fit into that category.



I don't agree here.

I've seen the government step in on a reserve and built a brand new water treatment facility, community centre and ball field. The water treatment plant quickly became vandalized and the water unusable after less than a year. The ball park became unmaintained, full of glass and other debris making the space unusable. The government also paid for an Art Gallery in the reserve close to my parents home which has been maintained fairly well to date.

The vast majority of my experience shows that these communities and people have no self respect, no respect for the things given or built for them and when things turn bad, the blame gets placed at the feet of everyone else.

Using the example at Attawapiskat, they were built a water treatment facility and provided training and a vehicle to one of the citizens. Soon enough, the truck was taken away by the Chief to be used elsewhere and the guy was trying to haul tools to the facility on his bike.

   

Maybe but lets check out how many times in the last few months OUR courts and Crown lawyers have settled lawsuits with the Natives:

http://www.grenfellsun.sk.ca/News/Justi ... tiations/1

$12,000,000 to Cowessess March 24, 2012

$71,000,000 - Curve Lake, Hiawatha, and Mississaugas of Scugog Island First Nations March 30, 2012

Long Plain First Nation receives $21.3 million land claim settlement March 19, 2012

Read more: http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/Long+Plai ... z1rrD704R1

$154 million goes to Fort William First Nation in land claim settlement

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/arti ... settlement

The Natives have every right to have their day in court and hold us accountable for our present and past actions. Settlements are not made because the government and the lawyers feel "sorry" for the natives or they feel pressure from liberal minded folks. Settlements are made to avoid the courts, and they are made because the lawyers for the government advise the government that should they end up in court, there is a percentage chance that they will lose.

I think the common delusion that many racist and entitlement minded Canadians have is that this country is theirs free and clear and that the Natives have lost their legal "interest" in the land. If you believe that, you're going to have a hard time swallowing the other 1000 outstanding land claims rolling down the pipe. But you're used to swallowing, so pucker up and let the judges know your superior mind and skin colour no longer allow lawsuits by the Natives for any reason. Which btw is the reason we're in this mess, because of ignorant fucks like you with your superiority complex.

Guess what, the law is the law, and if we've promised something in exchange for living here, even if it is 300 years ago, we have a legal obligation to live up to that. You inherit that debt as a Canadian just the same as every Native person in North America has to share their land with dum*ucks like you.

   

Well, no argument here. I'm not saying they were different that the rest of human civilization with respect to wars and other points of human elightenment. I'm talking about the non-existence of an "idolent underclass" in their society, as you put it. Its not as if drug use and alcoholism and welfare abuse (or welfare programs for that matter) existed. Because they were hunter-gatherers, there was no room for individuals to not pull their weight. My point is that you cant draw a line between now and then and say "this behaviour is because of these cultural traditions"

   

I went to the liquor store the other day and walked in and out with a Native fellow. On our way in some other natives were begging for money.

On our way out, those same natives called the other one an "apple" (red on outside and white on inside). And I turned around and said "on what fucking planed did your ancestors last 20,000 years in this frozen hell begging for money outside the liquor store?"

For 20,000 years (or whatever stat you have) people existed and thrived on this land. Once we came and decided to school, or not school (google indian industrial schools which were shut down because it was unfair to school the natives to compete with the white settlers) natives, once we decided where they could live, where they could travel, who they could associate with, what businesses they could run, deny them credit, deny them access to lawyers to enforce the treaties, deny them access to the workforce, deny them the right to vote...

And now we have the rednecks and racists screaming that due to some genetic defect they are incapable of competing in the modern world...BULLSHIT. This is a problem of our own making. And it is YOU narrow-minded pinheads who look at the lake and only see the surface instead of the meters and meters of depth to that same lake.

Ya the Natives have to get off their asses and pick up the pieces of their race and culture that we have shattered over and over with our white superiority and greed. But we have to offer them the opportunity and the tools to get started, plus we have to stop treating them as an underclass and start treating them as equals, which means that if we've promised them healthcare and schools in exchange for their land, we should be providing them healthcare and schools.

We benefit enormously because of our opportunity to live and work in this great country. The shame is we're so fucking greedy that we don't bother to share much with those who we've agreed to share with.

   

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