Canadian Healthcare vs US healthcare
IcedCap @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:30 am
We have a thread titled "Canadian Healthcare vs US healthcare" and Bart somehow manages to turn it into another mulsim bashing fest 
Bart you seem like a good lad and I know you have personal reasons for hating Muslims but you're turning into a broken record bud
Banff @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:44 am
OK I'll change the subject back ..... Sorry I am not providing what lead up to this statement from a conversation with a doctor but I just want to get to the point and I think it is something which affects both the US and Canadian Healthcare . "People have their prioritys mixed up when proffessional athletes make 10$ M per year or more " ( shortage of doctors)
Scape @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:44 pm
I agree but the athlete making $10M is not the mean average of visitors to the hospital. So they have the money but they are not the most frequent users and ultimately it is volume that determines the quality of healthcare.
Put it another way, MacDonald's isn't going to make a gourmet Big Mac just because Britney Spears stops by on occasion. What keeps them in the black is catering to the demographic that is most likely to use it, same with healthcare. The people that use it the most are youth (15-25) and the elderly (65+) the high income is usually in the 35-55 bracket and they tend to use the system less. That dictates healthcare priorities in how care is disseminated.
BartSimpson @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:22 pm
maritimematt maritimematt:
I'm with Bart on the school - I'm uncomfortable with state schools opting into any form of Sharia law. If it was a private school, then there's a case - as long as it's closely monitored. It's nothing to do with racism but rather with insularity and 'ghettoization'. Obviously, privately funded schools should have much more leeway in their policy - as long as they maintain the base educational standards. But the job of taxpayer-funded schools is to educate the next generation of citizens - I don't know if a Sharia school would do that so well.
Thank you.
From a Muslim site:
http://euro-islam.info/pages/sweden.html
$1:
Sweden supports free Islamic schools with up to 85 % of the funding for public schools. These schools have to follow the national curriculum but are allowed to add their own curriculum. All of the Muslim schools are free schools. The first Muslim free school was opened during the autumn 1993 and more than twenty are currently active.
The school I spoke of is in Sweden, not Denmark, and I'll get the info for you on that if you wish - it is in a book and not on the net and the book is not with me.
BartSimpson @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:43 pm
Banff Banff:
OK I'll change the subject back ..... Sorry I am not providing what lead up to this statement from a conversation with a doctor but I just want to get to the point and I think it is something which affects both the US and Canadian Healthcare . "People have their prioritys mixed up when proffessional athletes make 10$ M per year or more " ( shortage of doctors)
I've never understood the logic behind this argument: People have their priorities mixed up when professional athletes make 10$ M per year or more and (doctors, nurses, teachers, janitors, hamburger flippers, etc.) get paid what they do.
A professional athlete who earns millions does so because people want to see what he/she can do. The fans generate billions in revenue to support the team owners, pay for stadiums, & etc.
If 17,000 people came to see YOU play basketball every night at US$100-US$3500 per ticket and all you made was the same wage as a doctor, you wouldn't bother much with basketball anymore, you'd become a doctor.
The top pro athletes get paid more than teachers or doctors because of the fact that in the whole world at any given time, only five or so people excel at their given sport - and you probably can cite those names for your favorite sport.
There's thousands of capable doctors and even amongst them there are superstars who earn far more than any other doctors do.
And if the superstar doctor had 17,000 patients filling a stadium every night he'd have sponsors and he'd be making $10m minimum.
In the USA doctors earn money according to their skills and they are free to go into private practice and earn millions...like many plastic surgeons do.
But when Health Canada dictates what you can charge for fees then there's never going to be an opportunity for the very best doctors to earn what they are worth in your system.
So great Canadian doctors come to the USA to earn what they're worth.
And I thank you for that because my wife's LASIK surgeon did a FABULOUS job on her eyes last year and he's originally from Guelph.
We paid him handsomely for the job and he proudly drives an Aston-Martin.
How many Health Canada doctors own Aston-Martins?
USA-AOK @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:43 pm
Numure Numure:
Whats wrong with the school going Muslim? If they are all citizens, then I don't see the problem.
What's wrong with a public school going neo-Nazi? Or anarchist? Or Christian? If they are all citizens, then you don't see the problem?
$1:
Racist anti-muslim propaganda has become common place comming out of your mouth, you should be ashamed.
Muslims come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. It is disingenuous to brand those who oppose this violent, barbaric, antisocial ideology as "racist."
USA-AOK @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:52 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I've never understood the logic behind this argument: People have their priorities mixed up when professional athletes make 10$ M per year or more and (doctors, nurses, teachers, janitors, hamburger flippers, etc.) get paid what they do.
That is because you understand economics, and those who make the above fallacious argument do not.
An interesting wrinkle here is that the Canadian government actively prevents the best doctors from working in Canada, by forcibly denying them the right to charge what they see fit. The answer to this problem is LESS state intervention, not more. If Canadians want the best health care in the world (as America has), they need to be willing to pay for it.
Liberals believe that individuals are motivated by altruism; conservatives believe that they are motivated by self-interest. By closely following the movements of Canada's best doctors, we can easily see who's right.
BartSimpson @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:58 pm
Welcome aboard, USA-AOK!!! ![[BB]](./images/smilies/beers.gif "Beers")
BartSimpson @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:07 pm
USA-AOK USA-AOK:
Liberals believe that individuals are motivated by altruism; conservatives believe that they are motivated by self-interest. By closely following the movements of Canada's best doctors, we can easily see who's right.
Pursuing self-interest is actually in the common interest.
The company that builds the best cars reaps the rewards and their executives, workers, and shareholders enjoy success because they've provided people with a good product such as this flagship of self-interest:
Ford can't make enough of these, even at $300,000 each.
But wait!
Wouldn't you rather live in a worker's paradise where, someday, you might be allowed to own this paradigm of People's Productivity and the MIRACLE of the Socialist State?
Socialism and the welfare state saps human ingenuity and productivity.
From each according to his ability to each according to his needs.
Translation: From those who work to those who don't.
So why work?
Vote Liberal, it's easier than getting a job.
Scape @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:50 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
In the USA doctors earn money according to their skills and they are free to go into private practice and earn millions...like many plastic surgeons do.
But when Health Canada dictates what you can charge for fees then there's never going to be an opportunity for the very best doctors to earn what they are worth in your system.
So great Canadian doctors come to the USA to earn what they're worth.
But when Health Canada dictates what you can charge for fees then there's never going to be an opportunity for the very best doctors to earn what they are worth in your system.
So great Canadian doctors come to the USA to earn what they're worth.
What is the value of life? A car? Should a system cater to a demographic that earns the most yet uses the system the least? What about the responsibility to the very young and the very old? They cost far more to care for but they have no Aston-Martins to sell for their lives.
You might want to ask the health care professionals what it is that really drives them and you will find it may not be a car but how they can improve quality of life.
Research can be argued is the Achilles heel of the health care system in Canada but the system is not catering to the whims of an elite few but providing care to the majority.
Behind the Brain Drain hype
$1:
My father, a physician, was attracted by the more egalitarian nature of Canada's public health care system. My mother, a documentary film-maker, was lured by the National Film Board. Both have added considerable value to Canadian society. In both cases, their brains were drawn to Canada by the very public institutions that have since been severely eroded. Perhaps the real risk of a brain drain lies there.
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
Zipperfish @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:59 pm
In terms of gross helath indicators -- infant mortality and life expectancy -- Canada adn the US are very close. We have two of the healthiest societies in the world. So obviously both systems work, at least on this gross scale.
I don't think it's hard to find examples, in the US, of underinsured people who liove in poverty the rest of their lives trying to pay off medical bills, or (in Canada) of people suffering because of unreasonable waiting times.
Obviously both systems need to be changed, becasue times are changing. People are healthier and living to be much older. We've picked the low hanging fruit adn now we are left fighting diseases that are much more difficult and expensive to treat. People expect more, these days -- private rooms, care by world-class specialists, freedom to choose various medical or quasi-medical options etc etc.
BartSimpson @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:34 pm
Scape Scape:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
In the USA doctors earn money according to their skills and they are free to go into private practice and earn millions...like many plastic surgeons do.
But when Health Canada dictates what you can charge for fees then there's never going to be an opportunity for the very best doctors to earn what they are worth in your system.
So great Canadian doctors come to the USA to earn what they're worth.
But when Health Canada dictates what you can charge for fees then there's never going to be an opportunity for the very best doctors to earn what they are worth in your system.
So great Canadian doctors come to the USA to earn what they're worth.
What is the value of life? A car? Should a system cater to a demographic that earns the most yet uses the system the least? What about the responsibility to the very young and the very old? They cost far more to care for but they have no Aston-Martins to sell for their lives.
You might want to ask the health care professionals what it is that really drives them and you will find it may not be a car but how they can improve quality of life.
Research can be argued is the Achilles heel of the health care system in Canada but the system is not catering to the whims of an elite few but providing care to the majority.
Behind the Brain Drain hype
$1:
My father, a physician, was attracted by the more egalitarian nature of Canada's public health care system. My mother, a documentary film-maker, was lured by the National Film Board. Both have added considerable value to Canadian society. In both cases, their brains were drawn to Canada by the very public institutions that have since been severely eroded. Perhaps the real risk of a brain drain lies there.
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
Okay, so why do so many of your doctors come down here?
USA-AOK @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:38 pm
Scape Scape:
What is the value of life?
The value of a life is whatever somebody is willing to pay to sustain it.
$1:
You might want to ask the health care professionals what it is that really drives them and you will find it may not be a car but how they can improve quality of life.
That's what the mediocre ones say.
The good doctors say nothing - they simply move down to the USA, where they can be paid what they are worth.
$1:
Research can be argued is the Achilles heel of the health care system in Canada but the system is not catering to the whims of an elite few but providing care to the majority.
You can't fund cutting-edge research by providing low-cost care to the majority.
Like it or not, most new technologies are developed for the "elite few" because they can cover the R&D costs. But never fear - within a few years they tend to make it onto the shelves at Wal-Mart for the masses to consume.
USA-AOK @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:48 pm
$1:
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
This exception does not disprove the general rule.
MOST people would be willing to move someplace else if they could make a lot more money there. This is why affulent metropolitan areas are densely populated, and rural areas with no opportunity are not.
Other people, by contrast, would prefer to stay in a dead end job when opportunity knocks. We call them "losers."
Ruserious @ Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:23 pm
USA-AOK USA-AOK:
$1:
My parents decided to remain in Canada even though they could earn more money in the U.S., and even though Canada had higher taxes. Their choice demonstrates that we are, much as neo-conservative pundits would have us believe otherwise, complex social beings -- not simple economic self-maximizers.
This exception does not disprove the general rule.
MOST people would be willing to move someplace else if they could make a lot more money there. This is why affulent metropolitan areas are densely populated, and rural areas with no opportunity are not.
Other people, by contrast, would prefer to stay in a dead end job when opportunity knocks. We call them "losers."
We call them intelligent.