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Granted, this idea is extreme, what I was looking for was a test of nerves and physical ability in a military environment. The motivation of the individual airborne trooper is excellent. The idea was to pass that motivation onto others. The desire to succeed gets you past your fears, so why not test it? You end up in a "teeth" postion, you'll know you really f**king earned it.

Freefall: I don't buy the safety concern. Live fire exercises are dangerous and some people don't like to do them, but they do it. Lots of other examples in military life right? Release would be an only an option, the other was posting to a support trade. As for the economics of it, of course this is pie-in-the-sky. Hell, we can't even train those waiting to join now in a timely fashion.

   

Sapper, although you have more experience than me in this field, I don't know if transforming the entire canadian army so that they are jump-qualified would be the best route to go. There are many reasons, Freefall listed a couple of them. The main reason, in my opinion, is that it would take out the 'specialness' of being in the airborne. Those who volunteer for the airborne, no matter what country's armed forces, are the elite in their army. They possess the best mental and physical fitness, and thus are the best (The BEST-OF-THE-best would be SF operators). To adress your concerns about increasing physical fitness, I think overall physical fitness could improve (in all departments, but particularly army). Whether you are a tank driver or an infantry-soldier, you should be able to meet basic physical fitness standards. I shouldn't be seeing pictures of Op Athena and other CF deployments with overweight soldiers in them. You shouldn't have to be in the airborne or JTF-2 to be considered physically fit. Every cook, engineer, driver, etc, should have to meet the same basic standards. This would also improve self-confidence, another point mentioned.

The Liberals have been trying to establish an elite QRF-capable force ever since the disbandment of the CAR. To accomplish this, they have been trying to increase JTF-2, but in the process lower the standards. They have been wrongfully trying to replace the CAR with a Special Forces unit that has relatively low standards. So, yes, this puts a plug in the hole left from the CAR, but it also takes away the 'eliteness' of a special forces unit.

I think that there should be three levels of 'eliteness' (I'm not even sure if that's a real word ) within the army. The first would be line infantry and all of the other basic army trades (engineer, armour, MP, etc.). The second level would be airborne, with an independent airborne regiment. The soldiers would have to VOLUNTEER for the honor to be apart of the Canadian Airborne, and thus would have to pass higher physical fitness tests and such. The third level would be Special Forces, and you would have to be the BEST in the military, (Air Force and Navy are allowed to apply for JTF-2) physically and mentally, to have the eligibility to join this unit.

P.S. Sapper: Sorry I didn't mention the Engineer branch, I sort of considered it in the 'usual brigade organic support units' group, but I was proven wrong, again, and have learned that it's an independent army branch. I'm learning Oh, and as for the rgt vs btln for the armoured units, that's kind of what I meant, as armoured regiements are usually battalion-sized, anyway.

As always, open to comments and suggestions

Thanks

   

We are getting too small to afford these kind of specializations. I'm not saying train every soldier we currently have in Basic Para. The idea is to train every soldier we take in from now on in Basic Para. Make Basic Para available to every currently serving soldier who wants it. The numbers are not unmanagable. We have less teeth trade recruits coming in than you think. CABC could expand to become a "finishing school" for recruits. The Americans routinely pump large groups of recruits through their system for units such as 82nd Abn. That one div contains almost as many fighting troops as the whole of the Canadian Army. They are considered elite by any measurement, so why not make our whole Army elite? This is not to say that our regular troops are no slouches, believe you me they aren't, but if offered the chance of a Basic Para, how many would turn it down? If the opportunity was offered to send an entire formed unit (say a Rifle Company) and all your pals were going, would that motivate you to at least try it? Probably. Since this would only apply to current soldiers, not going would not hinder your career, you've already made it. Recruits coming in would know up front that Basic Para is part of the requirement. If they don't want to do it, then join a different branch, or not join at all. Over time the majority of your fighting forces will have completed Basic Para. Just meeting the physical fitness standard is not the point of this, the real test is the physcological one. It used to be present on courses such as the Combat Leaders Course or Infantry Section Commander Courses before say '87. Yes you were beasted, and mentally flogged, but when you finished it, boy would you know your business. If you couldn't cut it, then you were not made a leader, simple as that. Thats gone from todays career path. So the idea is to inject it early. At a level all soldiers have to hit.

Motivated troops will always find a way to shine, airborne units or not. Volunteerism is already present in our military right from the start. You have to volunteer to join. No one can force you, and if you were (like say by a parent) then the military wouldn't take you, because the next person coming through that door will have High School, maybe a couple years of college, and no baggage. Guess who will get selected.

BTW the Liberals have not been trying to replace the old CAR with anything. JTF was established before they came into power. The JTF are this "second level" you refered to. Their fitness standards far surpass the level required for Jump school and service in the Abn. They aren't watering down anything. Since we don't have the "elite" CAR, no unit would suffer losing it's "eliteness", because by that skewed criteria, there aren't any elite units left. Right?

Continuing Education: The Engineers are more than another Army Branch. They are part of the Combat Arms. Just like Infantry, Armoured, and Artillery, but not Supply Techs, Mechanics, and Medical, and Signals etc. Those other trades are the crucial portion of the team providing logistical support to the "shooters".

   

An army unit is only as fast as its slowest member.. Thats why fitness was and will allways be stressed more for the infanteer than many other trades and/or branches of the service.. But all members no matter what the trade are all grunts when it comes right down to it... Grab a bang stick and go shoot the bad guy when the need arises

   

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources ... csir_4.asp

   

Always a pleasure to shoot ideas off of you, sapper

Well, as far as our armed forces being too small to adapt to this transformation, this would theoretically be working in concert with the government's plan to drastically expand the CF.

They do this, but they don't force para training on their soldiers. Instead, there is heavy advertising in basic training and throughout their unit training about the professionalism and pride of being in the airborne. This is the aspect that attracts alot of volunteers. Another factor contributing to heavy volunteerism is the fact that you can say, for example, look at two NCOs/officers that joined at the exact same time, served in the infantry, and retired from the army at the same time, although one of them served 4 years of his service as a paratrooper. Hands down, the soldier that was a paratrooper advanced farther and achieved more in his military career than the infantryman. This is because, for advancement, military leaders favor someone who holds the discipline, physical fitness, courage, and motivation, as one in the airborne over some infantry-soldier high school dropout...
This is why the U.S. is the only country in the world that still operates a division-sized airborne unit.

I think if you forced para training on army recruits you would get an even lower annual recruiting pool.
Par example, think about if this was aired on the evening news:

"The Department of National Defence stated yesterday that all army recruits going through basic training must now undergo parachute training in order to qualify for the Land Forces. If they cannot or refuse to perform the airborne training, then the recruits will not be allowed into the Canadian army."

Now, not to say that this would scare EVERYONE away from joining the army, but I think that recruiting is low enough as it is and any little dent can make a relatively big impact on the army. I think that instead of forcing para training on recruits, the U.S.-style of heavy 'advertisement' and more advancement and benefits for airborne soldiers should be instilled within the Canadian army, thus surely bringing forth a large pool of motivated, fit individuals for the job.

As for replacing CAR with JTF-2, I realize now that I might have misrepresented what I meant. JTF-2 WAS created before the CAR, although with the disbandment of the airborne regiment the liberals HAVE used JTF-2 to fill the gap of an elite, airborne-capable QRF. I didn't mean that it was an actual one-for-one unit trade-off, but that the liberals have sort of adapted the role of JTF-2 to take over the role formerly instilled by the CAR.

I truely believe though, my idea could theoretically work as far as an elite airborne regiment with a, more capable smaller SF unit. The airborne unit and JTF-2 would complement each other. Because a larger dedicated QRF would be reinstilled, JTF-2 would be able to concentrate on their main task, which is CT and other SF ops. Thus, theoretically, the size of JTF-2 could be cut down a little bit while bringing the standards higher.

Wow. Sorry for the long post.

Merci beaucoup pour le 'continuing education'

   

Don't like the airborne idea, huh? I do say it is unpractical (my pie-in-the-sky comment) but the underlying idea is to generate a more highly motivated average soldier. So do we have any other examples to look at? Why, yes we do. Again we look south. At the USMC to be exact. Elite? Yes, they meet the criteria. How? High esprit-de-corps developed right from recruit training resulting in a motivated individual. Everyone is a rifleman. Is it practical in our case? Yes. Isn't everyone in the Army a rifleman already? No, they are not. We have already started taking steps in this direction with the SQ course. So lets take another step. Every single person who wears a green uniform shall become a basic infantryman. RH alludes to it, but I'm suggesting that we make the cooks, clerks, and blanket passers considerably more effective than what they are now. Would that increase our esprit-de-corps? I think so. It would give everyone a common experience to relate to. It would also give a useable skill set to every soldier. It also has the advantage of cutting out those who couldn't hack it. (Insert R. Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket comment: "...weed out those non-hackers who lack the baggage to serve in my beloved corps..." Sh*t! I should have saved that for the movie quote thread!) So, what do we think about this one? Reasonable? Achievable? How do we increase the standard soldiers effectiveness in the field?

Continuing Education: Eventually everyone comes around to the Engineers viewpoint. The govt wants the JTF to expand into a sort of "deep recce" support mission. Thats the only over-lap from the old CAR. The QRF capability supposedly rest with the Jump Coys in the Light Bns. What the reality of this is, I have no idea.

   

Building ships/planes/really anything used for the Forces in Canada would be the smartest move. Sure, it might cost a bit more than buying them outright from the Brits, the Americans, or the Russians, but it would give us a few things that are desparately needed.

First off, it would give some of our unemployed people jobs. It doesn't take a university education (or more than high school) to run a MIG welder properly, with a day or two of training. Take people off umemployment and get some work out of them while you're paying them. This has the added benefit of relieving some of the costs of unemployment, as well as increasing the tax base.

Not only this, but we do have a rather high tax burden in Canada. I believe (though I'm not sure on the exact numbers) that about 30-40% of every dollar you earn goes straight back to the federal government. USing that as our number, building the equipment here in Canada would only cost about 60-70% of the cost anywhere else in the world.

Let's be fair here, and give our own citizens some jobs while we rebuild our military.

Even if the costs were identical, it's still in our favour to build here, again, for the employment factor. Bulding a ship (or a submarine) takes thousands upon thousands of man hours. We have dry docks.... why not put them to work?

More an economic post than anything else, but it does fit with the commitment to the Forces that the Liberals have brought forward, and I don't think anyone would disagree that we need a larger military. This is the cheapest, most cost-effective way the government could do it.

That's my two cents, anyway

O. S. Chucky

   

Well, that's a great idea, but the truth is that our shipbuilding industry doesnt have the know-all and experience to build a complex machine of war such as a submarine. The last navy ships our shipyards built was the Halifax-class frigates built between '93 and '97. Since then the industry has been rotting away...

As far as unemployment, Canada actually has a pretty low unemployment rate, that's actually part of the problem why we have such a low annual recruiting rate for the CF.

   

True as the umemployment fact is, it can never hurt to take an extra quarter of a percent off it.. an extra few thousand paying taxes instead of accepting money from taxes is a bit of a boost. Again, our ship building has rotted away since building the Halifax class, but it can be rebuilt in short order (at least compared to refurbishing those subs, which are already 4 years overdue)

~Chucky

   

How would buying equipment from the US be giving up your sovereignty? Countries buy and sell things to each other all the time.

   

Oops. I think I quoted the wrong person.

   

To date, this forum has had me interested. This is partly due to the topic and the direct relation it has to me as a Gunner. I have a few small points to agree with and a few to add too. Keep in mind I a'm an army member and have no personal knowledge of the iner workings of the Navy & Air Force.

1. Physical fitness! It is a must, across the board for all services and trades. The standard must be set and not to that of the weekest man.

2. Human Rights. I believe in human rights. The ARMY is a Dictatorship that serves a Democracy, not a Democracy within a Democracy. Let the Jacks train there soldiers as a team, sometimes this means dicipline. Being crule is wrong but push-ups are not a form of crulety. Don't make your leadership afraid to step on a few toes.

3. Don't train soldiers to be peace keapers. Soldiers can keep the peace, Peace keepers can't be peacemakers. (Walk Lightly but carry a BIG stick)

4. Buy the same amount of C-130J's and can the CC-130E/H.

5. Stratigic airlift, Requires more research. There has to be a better alternitive to the C-17 (It cost's too much) , the Antonov (agian money to convert all components to a minimum NATO standard) The Best solution I can think of is, Build a heavy lift plane from scrach and use as many components from the C-130J's so to reduce the cost and to have two planes with interchangable parts, Again is a great deal of money up front but reduces the cost of repair and replacement parts over a period of time. We have some really talented people up in Cold Lake who reserch aeronautics give them a ball and let them roll with it.

6. Medium / Heavy lift helos. there is only one that should be considered here, The Super Stalion. 300 air frames with less than 1/2 of there expected flying life are sitting in Arizona (along with about 200 F-18C/D Jets) unable to rust in the dessert. Buy them upgrade them. When it comes to weapons technologies, Canada is among the leaders in electronics, and Canadian engineers are some of the best airframe people in the industry, lets steal them back from our neighbours. This would be one of the most cost effective ways of doing this.

These are just a few of the Ideas that I have. Although I am still just a gunner I am conserned for the wellfair of all the Canadian Armed Forces

What do you think

MBdr. Waters
"Ubique"

   

Dwaters,

I agree with your base points, though I would specifically like to stress the building of our own airplanes. As sure as I am that the USA takes good care of its equipment, the whole Upholder-class submarine upgrade scandal has me leery of doing the same with the Americans. I'd suggest building them ourselves, to the same design specs the Americans use. Cheaper, we have brand new airframes, and replacement parts are not a problem. Navy-wise, we may not have the best hydrodynamicists in the world, but we are VERY high on the list for aerodynamicists, so an Air Force should be a higher priority (That sounds wrong to me, being a Naval NCM, but oh well)

   

CFChucky

I like you Idea here, although I wonder what the patent or patents on something like that would cost? As where buying the airframes only will allow us to get those patents included.

   

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