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I'm not making a deal with all taxpayers Johnny, I'm dealing with you, and offering you your share...

If I pay you a dollar, that's the equivalent of your share of the cost of training 1800 soldiers for 1 year...

...if the other US taxpayers want their share, they'll have to ask me nicely...

   

here, ill give a deal: find 150,000 people to each give a dollars amount in the exchange rate, and you can keep the deserter. we don't need people who sign up for the military and then run when they can't take it.

   

Just a note to all of you who have never served, a soldier doesent fight for God, country, baseball or apple pie.. he fights for the other guys in his platoon, or rifle section or squad or what ever,, thats what he fights for.. you would of had to have served to really understand that though.....

   

Yeah, that's why I don't think this guy isn't brave. He isn't even willing to fit along with those other people who were put in the same situation as him. What makes him so brave? The fact that he turned his back on all those people and went to Canada? Whenever I see a guy on tv, who has been shot up, had his leg blown off, or whatever, and then to hear him say that he wants to go back out and fight with the rest of his comrades, I think that is bravery. Deserting your country and fellow comrades who are still fighting and dying doesn't seem like bravery to me. I mean, Americans are even going to see the war different than Canadians(although I'm sure you know a good deal more than the average American or me about military). When Americans see guys hurt, fighting in battle, and still wanting to go back to help out their fellow soldiers after they are injured, they can relate because they are American also. When Canada has a soldier die in Afghanistan, it hits home. It's just different points of view when it's actually your country having people dying, and when you have relatives in the military, or when you see people that have the same types of faces as people you went to school with, and who grew up in the same country as you. I dunno, I don't expect other countries to feel the same, because I know when I hear about wars, and I'm not a native of that country, even if it was Mexico or Canada fighting them, it just wouldn't hit me like Iraq does. I have extreme respect for soldiers, and I will never respect a deserter who leaves behind his company, his family, etc, especially when he volunteered. Although, it is kind of unfair of me to say I completely disrespect this guy, because he did fight in Afghanistan, but to just leave the military when you signed up, and leave behind your platoon, you guys who are still out there fighting, is not a respectable act. This isn't Vietnam everyone, this guy actually signed up. It doesn't matter if the war is just, he signed up to be in the military, and his job was being a soldier.

You know what, I really shouldn't judge him so harshly, he fought in Afghanistan, but at the same time, Afghanistan is like a cake walk compared to Iraq, I think. I just don't find his action to be brave at all.

   

I am not totally up on this topic but as a person who has also served my country I would say he should have payed his dime. Short of that he he should have stayed in the US and taken his lumps I would have had a little more respect for him, we are soldiers not mindless robots but for every action there is a reaction.

   

Actually RH, I spent 9 years in the Armed Forces. I was posted to Shilo, in the 3rd and then the 1st Regiment RCHA...and while I consider it an honour to have served, the reasons for my leaving are my own...

I will say that I absolutely know where you're coming from with the comeraderie that you experience with the guys in your platoon, or in my case, detachment, but I don't see that he walked out on his mates here...

He served with them in Afghanistan, which was a clearly just war against a definable enemy. It was an operation that sought retribution for 9/11... nothing wrong with that...

However, the distinction that needs to be made here is that the war in Iraq, illegal under international law, is something else entirely...how could anyone, ANYONE, willingly go there to kill civilian women and children, which, as seen in the staff sargeant's testimony, is exactly what's happening...they were sent there to fuck over a poorer and weaker nation...where the crimes against humanity are so commonplace, nobody gives a shit anymore...they are no better than Saddam's Republican Guard thugs...is that what you and your platoon were trained for Highlander? No friend anywhere, or at any time is worth that...

Apart from that, he made every effort to be reassigned to non-combat duty, and be recognized as a contientious objector...all to no avail...what other options were available to him that didn't involve jail? Kind of hard to support your family on a dollar a day...

I always said that if I was called to fight, I would go no matter what...that was before I saw this debacle...I would not willingly participate in any such campaign of blatant human rights offences...

I understand that some here do not believe that the crimes against humanity are even happening, but I do, and these are my convictions we're talking about...and I would have done things differently...

Were I were in the American Army, knowing what I know, I would have kicked the living shit out of the highest ranking officer I could find the night before we were to disembark...but that's just me...

Jeremy did it his way...for he and his family...I see no dishonour here except on the part of the the government that has embarked on this ethnic cleansing campaign...

   

Exactly, I think that he tried every option to get out of Iraq that he could. He tried to get reassigned and was turned down. Everyone on this board will admit that there are crimes going on in Iraq, as to what scale and how they should be addressed is another matter, but everyone is on board knows that Iraq is a mess. It's not like this guy turned tail in the middle of a fire fight. He tried all possible options that were supposed to be available to him and Canada was the last on the list but what else was he to do, go and not pull the trigger? If he can't pull out, and he tried to by the book, then imagine how many more are over there that are against this war that are just thinking as soon as they get back they are booking for Canada? The US all volunteer army has got to mean something. There is no partial conscientious objector status you either have it or your a back door draftee.

   

Just a quick thought, if he thinks it is morally wrong to fight in Iraq and doesn't want to serve, wouldn't it make more sense to stay and fight the system(thus gaining the higher moral ground) rather than running. If he believes so strongly in his position he should fight for it. He's running scared because he doesn't want to go to jail.
You can dress his reasons up however you like but the bottom line is he doesn't want to go to jail for his beliefs. Maybe feeling a little guilty about abandoning his brothers in arms.

   

Irag is a poorer and weaker nation? Afghanistan was a lot poorer than Iraq to my knowledge. Also, not every soldier is commiting human rights violations -- you just hear about those on the news. There's alot of soldiers who are helping rebuild houses, and help with security. Government cleansing campaign? Who's being cleansed, the rebels? The aren't killing everyone. Tons of people fled falluja. Yes, in the initial war there were a good deal of people killed, but that was during an overthrow of the Iraq government. Nowadays it's rebel fighters. I mean, the "rebels" are killing just as many civilians as United States forces nowadays. I'm sure you would kick the shit out of your highest ranking officer, because you have SO much class. You haven't even been to Iraq, so your whole arguement about human rights violations being common place is just bullshit. I know people who have been to Iraq - a contracter, a few soldiers - who say that it's mixed up. You have places you don't go, and you have other places were people are rebuilding, in which the soldiers are helping. From your post, you would think that the US is doing genocide over there. Yet you've never been, have you? How many soldiers do you talk to who have been over there? They tell you about all the human rights they commit, and how they are commiting genocide? Saddam didn't commit genocide though right? Saddam should still be in power, right, because he never did any crimes against humanity? I don't agree with the war on the basis it was gone about, but I agree with any war that removes Saddam and attempts to give Iraq a better future. Clinton tried to go to the UN before about Saddam, and the UN, being typical of themselves, did nothing, yet Canada sticks with the UN like they are supreme just rulers. Same type of stuff happened in Kosovo, just that Bush told the world Saddam had WMD(maybe he did, who knows -- or maybe it's an intelligence failure, or maybe it was a trick).

Your convictions tell you that there's crimes against humanity happening? I know some have happened, but it goes both ways, and often times they have happened against people who are the rebels and tried to do something to US forces. And when human rights violations happen agaisnt innocents then those people who commit them(not the whole army)should be taken to court like Lynch. Convictions are just as bad as lies!

You say you've been in the military, yet you paint the US army like everyone is just a uniform evil beast going around commiting constant acts of human rights violations as a whole. I believe that there's some bad apples in the mix. I mean, you get 150,000 people together and you are bound to have some bad apples I think. I mean, my cousin is a great person who would never commit a human rights violation, and just that fact leads me to believe there's plenty over there who wouldn't.

   

I have to agree with Johnny here. Not all of the U.S. soldiers are killing civilians. Vanni, you said you watched Fahrenhype 911, did you watch Fahrenheit 911?

It was an eye opener for me. I was shocked to see some U.S. soldiers that were being interviewed who were very much affected by seeing civilian bodies lying on the road side; you could tell it was eating at them. And when they come back, what's for them, especially if they come back with a disability? Not much since some of them that are in the U.S. now are living in shelters!

Vanni, I don't support this war anymore than you do. Trust me on this one; I don't. But to label all these guys as thugs is totally wrong. I'm sure Johnny is surprised with my post here, but man, it doesn't mean I'm blind. And you know what? I'm willing to bet the British soldiers have done the same damn thing.

   

Nobody will hear him if he's in jail. We wouldn't be talking about this if he hadn't decided to come here, and that's not something he did lightly..



It isn't the individuals, Johnny. It's a system, combined with an incompetent leadership, that pushes the individuals to commit those atrocities. It takes inordinate strength and courage to stand up and speak out against it.



No, but what happens if you are put in a position where that's the acceptable thing to do?


We need to start letting these people in. That Paul Martin hasn't had the balls to stand up and make such a statement shows that he is, at best, not nearly the man his father was.

   

I wasn't comparing Iraq to Afghanistan, I was comparing Iraq to the US...



So what you're saying is that it was OK to kill civilians as long as they achieved their objective of ousting Hussein?

...even though there are civilians killed by their indescriminate use of car bombs, I'm not hearing a lot of Iraqis asking for the insurgents to leave...except for maybe an occasional plea from Ayed Alawi's pro-US puppet pseudo-government...



He did indeed commit crimes against humanity...and he should have been brought to justice for it...yet he enjoyed immense support by the US before, during and after knowledge of his many crimes went public...



Have you been to Iraq Johnny? If not, then by your own admission, anything you say on the subject is equally bullshit...



Have you been drinking Johnny...I think I know what you were trying to say with this paragraph though...that the individual should be judged on his or her own merit...but that's so not true...when crimes against humanity happen, it's because of a breakdown in the command structure...

so yes...the individual should be punished...but it should also be acknowledged that the problem is systemic, and that level upon level, the vapour trail for this abuse of authority leads right to the door of the White House...

They tried to get away with that crap with Abu Ghraib too, blame it on a few bad apples...you don't believe that though do you Johnny?



http://www.universalfriends.org/IraqWar ... eaths.html

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/5402104

I'm sorry, but not knowing who to kill does not justify the killing of innocents...

   

That's such bullshit. Roc, I'm calling bullshit on you. So you're saying that before you can point how hypocritical the chicken hawks are, you need to put yourself in a position to "get yourself killed", otherwise you're a bigger hypocrite? WTF?

   

...one last thing...my grandfather was recognized as a contienteous objector in Germany during WWII and was put to work in the forestry department...

...seems a little ironic that the Nazis had more compassion then than the US has now...

   

Canada's lucky, they get all of our best.

Our best Tories.
Our best deserters.
And our best fleeing liberals.

   

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