Harper playing dangerous political game
Scape @ Wed May 04, 2005 12:55 pm
dwaters dwaters:
Scape,
I ask you this. How is it you have come to assume that Canada is in such a frail possition?
Do you honestly think that Quebec will actualy break off from Canada. The sepretist movment has no merit untill the PQ actually get back into the Quebec parlement as the govt. This means that there is 3 years to battle the sepretist movement. Under this the BQ can really do nothing but make the Quebec life a little more cushy for them.
As for your questioning my stance on if I'm for or against Canada. Open your eyes. I'm in the ARMY and in that I'm more than willing to die for this country if need be, but while I'm still here I will work toward making this place we call Canada a better place. I believe, and have always believed in CANADA, so if you wish to critisise me do so not my politics not on my patriotism.
$1:
A Bloc controlling 60-odd federal Quebec seats, and a newly elected PQ with a majority of the provincial seats will be on one side. Who will be on the other side? Who will speak for Canada this time? Who will fight and win this battle for the hearts and minds of Quebecers? Pierre Trudeau did it in 1980, Jean Chretien in 1995. Both were leaders of majority governments with substantial support in Quebec. If Harper imagines that his words will motivate Quebecers to remain in Canada, he doesn't know the province very well.
Yes, Canada is very frail at this point. The separatists see the Federalist camp in disarray and weak and rightly so. I am sorry if your so easily offended on such a sensitive subject, my question was not to question your patriotism. But surly you must understand that a Quebec officer in the army would have no qualms in serving an independent Quebec. So patriotism can easily be used as a political weapon against the very thing that both of us served mother green to protect. If someone chooses Harper who
chose to side with the separatists over Canada then they are just as culpable in their fate when the inevitable destruction of the country ensues.
$1:
This is what I find so disgusting about the Canadian Political environment. Simply opposing the reigning Liberals is seen as somehow being "Un-Canadian".
I am Canadian and I have never witnessed what you are saying.
Harper can suck..........my.......multi-ethnic................
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Sorry folks! I just had to do that!!!

Canadaka Canadaka:
$1:
This is what I find so disgusting about the Canadian Political environment. Simply opposing the reigning Liberals is seen as somehow being "Un-Canadian".
I am Canadian and I have never witnessed what you are saying.
When Paul Martin wraps himself in the Canadian flag and preaches that he and he alone is the one to defend federalism, then who is it's enemy? The answer is...anyone who doesn't vote Liberal. He's not talking about the Bloc, he's talking about those evil Conservatives.
When the Liberals demonize Ralph Klein for experimenting with alternate delivery of health care, accusing him of trying to "Americanize" the system, he's again painting all conservatives as "Un-Canadian."
When the Liberals bill themselves as the party of multiculturalism, and try to paint multiculturalism as Canada's main foundation, then they're calling anyone who doesn't support them as an "Un-Canadian" and racist.
During last year's election, when Harper wanted to get a new ship for the military to get them overseas to the world's hot spots, the first thing Martin did was pen the term "Canada needs health care, not American style Aircraft Carriers." Again, another attempt to portray anyone who doesn't agree with the Liberal platform as a toady to the evil US.
Maybe you've missed it, but I've lived here a good chunk of my life too, and I can't see anything else.
The Bloc will controle only 60 odd seats, there are 308 in parliment and asumming a minority govt. that means approx. 130 -140 seats for a strong minority which is preferable. Leaving 14-24 seats required to be won over to pass a bill or motion on the floor. On the other hand the Bloc would need 94 seats to win a motion on the floor in the house. So your argument really doesn't hold water. There would have to be a referendum and then the passing of a bill on the floor in the house, and I know that the only way that could happen is if the Bloc formed the govt. There aren't enought seats in Quebec to do that. Quebec is here to stay.
Scape @ Wed May 04, 2005 2:25 pm
More than politics, this is a national crisis
$1:
For his part, Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe is the Jekyll and Hyde of Canadian politics. Most days Mr. Duceppe is a Doctor Jekyll who wants a clean political system and progressive policies for the country. That is until a crisis arises that will provide him with winning conditions in his crusade to lead Quebec out of Confederation. The demise of the Liberals will take Mr. Duceppe a long way toward his goal. After sweeping almost all Quebec ridings in a federal election, Mr. Duceppe can replace the unpopular Bernard Landry as Parti Québécois leader. From there, his sights would be set on wresting power in the next Quebec election from the even more unpopular Jean Charest. In the persona of Mr. Hyde, Mr. Duceppe would then launch a sovereignty referendum while Mr. Harper, his current collaborator in sacking the Liberals, is prime minister. While many Quebeckers would resist the siren call of separation, Mr. Duceppe's case would be greatly strengthened by the presence in Ottawa of a neo-conservative government with whom Quebeckers would have little sympathy.
No it's not. Quebec isn't going to take over Canada, they are going to separate from it! This means the PQ will do that and Duceppe will take the reigns of the PQ
if Harper wins and he is in opposition.
Mark my word. After the next election the house will look similar to this.
1. Conservitive's to form the govt. with about 110-115 seats
2. Liberals to form the opposition with about 100 seats
3. Bloc Quebecois with 60 seats
4. NDP 30 seats
5. Green Party 3-4 seats
6. and maybe a handfull of independents
I'm not trying to be clairvoyant but this is going to be the way the people of Canada will begin to punish the liberals. It'll be a trial run and this whole holding on to power and election mongoring will just switch switch. It'll be a very week minority and nothing will get done except the things that will need to get through. That's when being a polition will count and the lobying will have to be done to get the votes that are needed to pass a bill in the house. I like this LESS PARTY politics and MORE PEOPLE politics. The people of Canada need to keep the BQ out of the official opposition and things will be fine.
Scape @ Wed May 04, 2005 3:39 pm
I agree but the NDP will split the Liberal base. If the inquiry is allowed to run its course we could at least have some decisive changes made but if we call it now that means the Bloc and the Conservatives are in bed, there is no other way around that. That will give the Bloc more votes at the expense of the Conservatives. There will be a backlash on the Liberals and that will translate into more seats for the NDP. The Greens don't have a hope in hell on getting a seat in the current unstable political climate. So my guess would be if the election is called before Gomery then we will have:
Liberals 90-100
Conservatives 90-100
Bloc 60
NDP 40-50
After Gomery
Liberals 90-100
Conservatives 100-110
Bloc 60
NDP 30-40
Timing is everything.
Scape @ Wed May 04, 2005 3:53 pm
Lawndart Lawndart:
The Schreiber-Airbus Affair you've cited, I guess as "Proof" Mulroney was corrupt, was never proven. In fact, Mulroney won a huge settlement against the Government for slandering him over it.
Airbus affair$1:
Though there is no evidence that Mulroney accepted kickbacks while Prime Minister, it was acknowledged in 2003 that shortly after stepping down as prime minister in 1993, Mulroney accepted $300,000 over 18 months from Schreiber. Mulroney claims that this was to help promote a fresh pasta business and develop international contacts. Mulroney had previously denied accepting any commissions from Schreiber.
You can say crackpot all you wish, the fact remains that Mulroney and Bouchard worked together for their own interests and put Canada up for sale.
It was Prime Minister Brian Mulroney who eliminated the requirement for Canadian Banks to hold a cash reserve. The Bank act of 1991 phased them out. He handed the Banks a gift of several billion dollars of taxpayer money which we have to hand over every year in perpetuity. We pay the banks interest on treasury bills and bonds that they bought in cash that they no longer have to keep in reserve.
Bouchard I can forgive, Brian never. As much as you call such facts as 'conspiracy theory' so too is the conspiracy theory that Harper is a viable option to keep Canada together when he is nothing more than a thinly veiled Albertan Separatist.
Freaker Freaker:
Sharkull Sharkull:
Freaker Freaker:
Sharkull Sharkull:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I think the Liberals need a little time to go stand in the corner and reflect on their sins. I'll vote for Harper and hope he realizes that Canadians like freedom more than social conservatism.
Well said... and you don't need to convince Harper of anything about social conservatism. Talk to your CPC MP... they're the ones who will be representing you. Harper will be just one vote representing his riding on social issues. Nothing more.

IMHO, Sharkull, that may be just a
tad naive, eh?
If the Tories are still talking about taking power out of the hands of "unelected judges", it sure sounds to me like they want to push a socially/culturally conservative agenda by making an end run around the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Thank you for being polite. I support the CPC mainly because of their fiscal policy, and for the social stuff I'm very willing to at least give the CPC a chance. If a majority of MP's vote for something (whatever it is), in a
free vote, isn't that democracy in action? Would you rather that your important social policy decisions be made by unelected judges (pray you agree with them on every issue, because you have no influence over them)?
Also, there is no evidence implying that the CPC will break their promises about holding free votes on social issues... which is something that the Liberals cannot come even close to claiming. They've broken so many promises, it's not even funny anymore.
It seems to me that there is almost a concensus among Canadians that the Liberals should be given the boot. The problem is that the alternatives to the Liberals still aren't seen as being entirely credible. It's a frustrating situation!
Just another thought: Supreme Court judges are indeed unelected, but the PM who appoints them
is elected and can be held accountable by the voting public for those appointments. In other words, Canadian voters ultimately
do have a say in the Supreme Court through their elected representatives.
The PM appoints them... and that is supposed to be some great democratic step forward? The only people who voted directly for any PM are in their home riding (and voters just don't connect the dots from PM to supreme court decisions come election time). I would much rather that
every riding is represented when such important decisions are being made.
The fact that the story in question was authored by David Orchard led me to believe that nothing of value would be said. The content of the article confirmed my suspicions. Orchard has moved into the political twilight zone, where those who were unceremoniously BOOTED off the island spend their time telling others they know how the game SHOULD be played. Which does nothing to explain why they were unceremoniously BOOTED off the island.
Joining David on the stage of Bitter Losers is none other than our old pal, Preston Manning. I'm sure you'll remember Preston. He, despite a complete lack of political experience, and with an understanding of Canadian politics that rivalled a laboratory mouse's understanding of quantum physics, decided to form a political party. Said party's aim was the promotion of small-c conservatism and the defeat of the Federal Liberals. The end result was a Canadian conservative movement so fractured that the federal Liberal's ruled uncontested for more than a decade. Preston now fills his days of disillusionment by dreaming of what might have been (... if only I'd given in to that urge to dress campaign workers in brown shirts and jack boots), and writing sniping op-eds for the Globe and Mail (which seems to be the last paper to willing to defend the virtue of Liberals and deny Paul Martin's culpability).
However, unlike Manning -who habitually gets it ALL wrong- Orchard did make a valid point regarding Pierre Trudeau's contribution to Canadian unity (as an Albertan, you can't imagine the pain I feel in contemplating that Trudeau might have done anything worth noting). His (Trudeau's) response to the October Crisis was absolutely the right thing to do. He let would be separatists know in no uncertain terms that any attempt by a province OF CANADA to secede from Canada would be viewed as nothing less than an act of treason and would be dealt with accordingly.
$1:
As much as you call such facts as 'conspiracy theory' so too is the conspiracy theory that Harper is a viable option to keep Canada together when he is nothing more than a thinly veiled Albertan Separatist.
I'll assume that comment was made in an attempt to generate a response, even though it fails the most cursory examination of logic. If Harper had a hidden agenda of Alberta separation, surely even someone as politically inexperienced as he would see that it would be better expressed in a party devoted to that aim (can you say Bloq Alberta, I knew you could) rather than one desperately seeking recognition everywhere beside's Alberta.
The fact is that Harper and the Conservative's don't have any agenda, much less a hidden one. If the time should come to pass that Canadians should elect Conservatives in numbers sufficient to form the Government, the resulting confusion will make Paul Martin's meandering aimlessness seem positively inspired in comparison.
Scape @ Thu May 05, 2005 2:48 am
This is what Harper said.
God, I gotta repeat myself again.
$1:
Federalism:
“It is imperative to take the initiative, to build firewalls around Alberta, to limit the extent to which an aggressive and hostile federal government can encroach upon legitimate provincial jurisdiction.” (National Post, January 24, 2001, “Open Letter to Ralph Klein”)
“If Ottawa giveth, then Ottawa can taketh away… This is one more reason why Westerners, but Albertans in particular, need to think hard about their future in this country. After sober reflection, Albertans should decide that it is time to seek a new relationship with Canada. …Having hit a wall, the next logical step is not to bang our heads against it. It is to take the bricks and begin building another home – a stronger and much more autonomous Alberta. It is time to look at Quebec and to learn. What Albertans should take from this example is to become “maitres chez nous”. (National Post, December 8, 2000)
“[T]he Liberals still insist on meddling in provincial jurisdiction in areas such as health care, education, and municipalities ….The federal government should refocus on its core areas of responsibility, and allow provinces to define their own priorities for their own societies. … Stephen Harper would seek to recognize, through federal-provincial agreements, that areas of jurisdiction such as labour market development, forestry, mining, housing, recreation, and municipal and urban affairs are exclusive areas of provincial jurisdiction, and to adequately compensate the provinces for withdrawing federal spending in these areas.” (Federalism for All Canadians, Stephen Harper Policy Paper, oneconservativevoice.ca, March 2004)
“Whether Canada ends up as one national government or two national governments or several national governments, or some other kind of arrangement is, quite frankly, secondary in my opinion… And whether Canada ends up with one national government or two governments or ten governments, the Canadian people will require less government no matter what the constitutional status or arrangement of any future country may be.” (Speech to the Colin Brown Memorial Dinner, National Citizens Coalition, 1994)
In the most cursory examination of logic of
his own words makes it very clear what is going on here. He want to flatten federalism outright. We may have a nation called Canada under Harper but that's all it will be, in name only as he will make us little more than a Confederacy with the strong lording over the weak. Who does this truly favor? Western separatists, because Quebec will separate under his plan and he know it. This will allow Alberta to go on it's own without any backlash from an Ontario with it's hands full. Simple divide and conquer.
$1:
In the most cursory examination of logic of his own words makes it very clear what is going on here. He want to flatten federalism outright. We may have a nation called Canada under Harper but that's all it will be, in name only as he will make us little more than a Confederacy with the strong lording over the weak. Who does this truly favor? Western separatists, because Quebec will separate under his plan and he know it. This will allow Alberta to go on it's own without any backlash from an Ontario with it's hands full. Simple divide and conquer.
In the quotes you cite, I see no foundation for an allegation that Harper is a Western Separatist, or that he supports such a movement. What I do see is that he promotes a view that Alberta
should redefine it's role within the Federation. That may sound like a radical idea, but it is hardly unique. Quebec has repeatedly used it's "uniqueness" as an argument to gain advantage that is not given to other provinces. Certainly it's declining contribution to Confederation, should've diminished it's voice, not the opposite. The off-shore deal being given to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia is another example of a province(s) being given special treatment that others are denied. I agree with Danny Williams that resource revenues should belong solely to the province from which they come (and the
Constitution Act of 1982 entrenches that into law). However, his argument (which the Martin Liberals have signed-off on) that resource revenues are separate and do not count toward transfer payments is seriously flawed. Without resource revenues, Alberta would also be a have-not province. Unless the Alberta provincial government trimmed their budget to match a revenue base that did not include resource revenues. If Alberta were not expected to contribute to the transfer payment scam, Newfoundland's decline in transfer payments would far exceed it's newfound resource riches. Danny Williams wants to have his cake, eat it, have someone else pay for it and expects the rest of Canada to clean-up his mess. Is it any wonder Alberta (and lately Ontario) wants to redefine their role in this wonderful con.
That Harper would express a "Firewall Around Alberta" as his own unique vision is pathetic. This idea has been bandied around Alberta since the days of the National Energy Program. That policy took Alberta from boom to bust in a matter of month's, and it's primary motivation (from an Albertan perspective) was to halt the perceived influence Alberta was gaining on the national stage. To pervert the national motto of Israel
"Never Again The N.E.P.". It is worth noting that Alberta's prosperity has a very large effect on the prosperity of the nation. In this case what's good for Alberta IS good for Canada. Unfortunately, too often is the case that what is good for Canada is not good for Alberta (btw, the NEP was not good for Alberta or Canada). Hardly surprising then that Albertans might seek to implement a mechanism that protects them from federal interference that brings great harm to our province and grants political capital to those doing the harm. This does not constitute
the strong lording over the weak. What's ironic in your statement is that
The British North America Act and the
Constitution Act of 1982 WERE designed to create a strong federal government and to limit the powers of the province's. That was a reasonable model when Ontario and Quebec made the lion's share of contributions to the federation, and the other regions depended upon them for the growth and/or survival. In that circumstance, Ontario and Quebec had every reason to expect to control Federal Government. However, the present reality is now quite different from that and maybe's it's time the framework was altered to match the changes.
While I understand your desire to discredit Stephen Harper (whom I consider a spineless policy wonk), your unfortunate misinterpretaions of his "agenda" does not enhance your own credibility.
Sharkull Sharkull:
Freaker Freaker:
Sharkull Sharkull:
Freaker Freaker:
Sharkull Sharkull:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I think the Liberals need a little time to go stand in the corner and reflect on their sins. I'll vote for Harper and hope he realizes that Canadians like freedom more than social conservatism.
Well said... and you don't need to convince Harper of anything about social conservatism. Talk to your CPC MP... they're the ones who will be representing you. Harper will be just one vote representing his riding on social issues. Nothing more.

IMHO, Sharkull, that may be just a
tad naive, eh?
If the Tories are still talking about taking power out of the hands of "unelected judges", it sure sounds to me like they want to push a socially/culturally conservative agenda by making an end run around the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Thank you for being polite. I support the CPC mainly because of their fiscal policy, and for the social stuff I'm very willing to at least give the CPC a chance. If a majority of MP's vote for something (whatever it is), in a
free vote, isn't that democracy in action? Would you rather that your important social policy decisions be made by unelected judges (pray you agree with them on every issue, because you have no influence over them)?
Also, there is no evidence implying that the CPC will break their promises about holding free votes on social issues... which is something that the Liberals cannot come even close to claiming. They've broken so many promises, it's not even funny anymore.
It seems to me that there is almost a concensus among Canadians that the Liberals should be given the boot. The problem is that the alternatives to the Liberals still aren't seen as being entirely credible. It's a frustrating situation!
Just another thought: Supreme Court judges are indeed unelected, but the PM who appoints them
is elected and can be held accountable by the voting public for those appointments. In other words, Canadian voters ultimately
do have a say in the Supreme Court through their elected representatives.
The PM appoints them... and that is supposed to be some great democratic step forward? The only people who voted directly for any PM are in their home riding (and voters just don't connect the dots from PM to supreme court decisions come election time). I would much rather that
every riding is represented when such important decisions are being made.
Sometimes it's difficult to reconcile democratic principles with human rights. On the whole I think the Canadian practice represents a reasonable balance. If the PM appoints truly unacceptable people to the Supreme Court, people will connect the dots. So far, most -but by no means all- voters appear to find the present setup satisfactory. Canadians still support the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.