Canada Kicks Ass
PQ Should expand to Ontario...

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_747 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:43 pm

Ontario is as much Quebec as Quebec is! Here are two pictures: one was a picture as to when the colony was taken.

http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html

Here is another picture of Quebec, after the 1774 Quebec Act was put in place by King George of Great Britain.

http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 774_e.html

Check out the Act for yourself

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Cana ... _1774.html


Today's Quebec certainly is not a reflection of the original Quebec, nor the Quebec that was put forward by King George. Quebec was eventually split into two, to become lower Canada (Quebec) and upper Canada(Ontario). When the Dominion of Canada was created Lower Canada and Upper Canada were joined to become one. All other provinces were eventually admitted to become the country we are today. Which came first, the chicken or the egg. Quebec or Canada, or is Quebec and Canada, one in the same? Can Quebec truly separate from itself? If Quebec were to go its own way should it not keep the name Canada?

It is only fitting that the PQ should represent all of Quebec as it was or should have been. Therefore the PQ should set its sites on establishing a presence in Ontario (or Quebec). However, you want to see it.

_747

   



Mustang1 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:33 pm

Is this an attempt at being provocative? I certainly hope not because its desperate simplicity and historical unawareness reeks of amateurish intellectualism. In short: this kind of pigswill shouldn’t even warrant a response, but I’ll play regardless.

Firstly, look up the Quebec Act and then get back to me – I’m not here to educate the chronically unaware.

Secondly, look up the historical particulars regarding Confederation. This will hopefully eliminate such moronic statements like “When the Dominion of Canada was created Lower Canada and Upper Canada were joined to become one. All other provinces were eventually admitted to become the country we are today.” Damn, that junk would make elementary students weep.

Thirdly, etch this date and event in your feeble intellect: September 13, 1759, Plains of Abraham. Got it? Now explain to me exactly how New France wasn’t a conquered colony after this date – I’ll wait while you fumble with a response.


_747 _747:

It is only fitting that the PQ should represent all of Quebec as it was or should have been.



Hey, it’s only “fitting” that you get a historical clue too, but that’s not likely and either is your juvenile supposition. 8)

   



_747 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:28 pm

Did I make up those maps?

You are right the colony was lost in 1759. This was during the seven year war. There was no forces to defend it. France attempted to send ships but was blocked for one reason or another. However, France did make a move to get the colony back.

The land in Question, I once again refer to the picture.

http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html

How?

France provided the required military resources, the final victory, and the treaty that recognized the United States as a country. Why would France provide such help to the American colony? France wanted the colony of New France back and the United States agreed to deliver it. That may explain why the United States invaded Canada in 1812, but was beaten back without the help of France.

France's support for the American revolution cost France 2000 million livres. An amount that bankrupted France and threw France into it's revolution. This gave rise to NAPOLEON, you may have heard of him?

Napoleon Later sold Louisiana to the United States for 80 million livres. A pittance compared to the 2000 million Livres France paid out to achieve American Independence.

It should be indicated that the Americans tried to persuade the Francophones to join them in their fight for independence but the British Monarch responded by promising the Francophones Language rights, and the managing of their own affairs.

The Francophones of Canada or Quebec got lost in the shuffle of time. However the deal was made, and the Francophones are still waiting for the United States to deliver on it.

But in the mean time the PQ should represent all the lands in Question, including Ontario.

You may want to check out this link

http://library.thinkquest.org/20619/Sthist.html

It talks about the statue of Liberty and why France gave it to the United States.

_747

   



Mustang1 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:25 pm

Nice dodge! Was there a point in that gabled, largely ambiguous stream of historical minutiae?!? Louisiana was sold to the United States??? Really?!!? Thanks for the revelation, but where the hell is the relevance? What does this have to do with Quebec becoming a CONQUERED colony after its defeat at the hands of the British??!?? Stop surfing the net for research and READ A HISTORY BOOK!!!

_747 _747:

You are right the colony was lost in 1759. This was during the seven year war. There was no forces to defend it. France attempted to send ships but was blocked for one reason or another. However, France did make a move to get the colony back.


I am right. I didn’t ask what led to their total defeat – that wasn’t the salient point. After the signing of the Treaty of Paris (1763) New France ceased to exist as a French colonial possession. It was legally established as the British Colony of Quebec. In fact, it was ruled as a British crown colony, separated politically in organization and stature, from its 13 Colonies counterparts (the later took extreme issue with Quebec’s distinction). From this point on – I don’t care about your web-surfin’ map – Quebec was BRITISH!!! Got it? It was a conquered territory – that’s why this historical period is often referred to as the “Conquest.” Therefore, Ontario wasn’t Quebec; it was – before the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and the Quebec Act – part of land that was vague in geographical definition (see Conrad and Finkel). That’s why your “map” had radically changed by 1763 where land that used to be part of the ambiguously New France (the defeated colony) was largely ceded to aboriginals (although later it would be annexed back to British rule).

747 747:
France provided the required military resources, the final victory, and the treaty that recognized the United States as a country. Why would France provide such help to the American colony? France wanted the colony of New France back and the United States agreed to deliver it. That may explain why the United States invaded Canada in 1812, but was beaten back without the help of France.


Point? How is this related to your original assertion, “It is only fitting that the PQ should represent all of Quebec as it was or should have been”? Please try to maintain some semblance of cohesion of thought – this point is largely immaterial and it merely serves notice that you know little about what you write about. Again, look up the “War of 1812” before you embarrass yourself any further.


747 747:
France's support for the American revolution cost France 2000 million livres. An amount that bankrupted France and threw France into it's revolution. This gave rise to NAPOLEON, you may have heard of him?

Napoleon Later sold Louisiana to the United States for 80 million livres. A pittance compared to the 2000 million Livres France paid out to achieve American Independence.

It should be indicated that the Americans tried to persuade the Francophones to join them in their fight for independence but the British Monarch responded by promising the Francophones Language rights, and the managing of their own affairs.

The Francophones of Canada or Quebec got lost in the shuffle of time. However the deal was made, and the Francophones are still waiting for the United States to deliver on it.


Again, Point? Don’t try to obfuscate your inability to defend your position by simply spewing irrelevant historical information – it reeks of desperation. This still doesn’t change Wolfe’s victory over Montcalm on September 13, 1759. Got it?

747 747:
But in the mean time the PQ should represent all the lands in Question, including Ontario.



Nice argumentative fallacy – still haven’t established one component of your severely flawed assertion. In fact, you’ve failed to address your misinterpretation of the Quebec Act and your gross ignorance regarding Confederation particulars. Stop looking at web-maps for knowledge and pick up a HISTORY BOOK, so we can avoid another cognitive seizure that you call a rebuttal

   



_747 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:23 pm

If you like I could provide you numerous books as references to these assertions.

I realize you are in Historical denial, but none the less..

Questions:

Was there a French Colony?

Yes

What lands did it contain?

http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html

Did France help the United States achieve an independence that otherwise would not have been achieved without their help?

Undeniably yes, their failure in the war of 1812 is a testament to that fact.

Why would France help the United States?

They wanted back what they lost, The French Colony, New France, GET IT..

Did France fulfill its end of the Bargain?

Yes, undeniably so.

Has the United States lived up to their end of the Bargain?

NO, they have not, as the land in Question has not been duly returned.

Is the United States in position to honor this deal?

Absolutely, they are the lone superpower, and they went into Iraq without world approval. What would it be to the world if they developed the integrity to honor the agreement made, and in turn payed thanks for the gift they received: Freedom and Democracy.

Is history going anywhere?

History is not going anywhere. The truth is there if you truly want to see it. I see you are in Quebec (oh, Ontario if you like). Need I say the British or the loyalist that fled from the United States to Canada in the fight for independence of the United States are really the true enemies of the United States. The enemies of Freedom and Democracy.

Forget Iran, the United States has unfinished business to take care of, here, first.

At least I provide outside sources to substantiate what I put forward. What have you done to substantiate your position?

It's time for the PQ to become the guardians of the said lands, until some form of resolution is made, satisfactorily to the injured parties. :!:

Continue to live in denial that is what anglo-canadians are good doing.

_747

   



Mustang1 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:13 pm

Are you actually theorizing the idiotic notion that France helped the American Revolutionaries in their actions against British rule solely to gain back former New France?!? Huh? And you are foolishly diagnosing me as being in “historical denial”? Is that intellectual projection?

Let’s see how you fumble with the following HISTORICAL realities that seem to call into question your erroneous supposition: Why did Canadiens overwhelmingly declare neutrality during the American Revolutionary War if France was to help them become part of the Empire again? Why did the Continental Congress invade Quebec in 1775? According to your bastardization of history, these actions should have never occurred because of the Franco-American pact.

Secondly, New France ceased to exist on September 13, 1759. It became the British colony of Quebec and it no longer directly controlled its geography (as ambiguous as it was – you cowered away from this challenge!). It was British. Britain “made” Ontario. It wasn’t Quebec land – that ended the day it got its collective ass handed to it by Wolfe on the Plains of Abraham. Got it? Ontario is not Quebec, no more than New York is Dutch. Do you finally understand? Want some more clarification as I do feel sorry for the historically-challenged, short-bus passengers like you.

Lastly, you don’t get historical analysis. You are separatist simpleton trying his hand – badly, I might add – at historical revisionism. You don’t understand the realities of historical inquiry nor can you satisfactorily apply its lessons to discourse. You clearly didn’t provide a vast array of legitimate primary or secondary sources (you are lazy web-surfin’ dope) and yet you demand I do the very thing you can’t? Please. I used verifiable, objective, legitimate historical facts to substantiate my correct assertions – why not prove them wrong then? Go ahead, let’s see you cower from this challenge – I’ll await your dodge, and when you do, I predicted it.


_747 _747:
Need I say the British or the loyalist that fled from the United States to Canada in the fight for independence of the United States are really the true enemies of the United States. The enemies of Freedom and Democracy.


Prove it. I’d like to see your meagre cognitive abilities grapple with this historical fuck-up. [B]Let’s see how you demonstrate (with verifiable, irrefutable and legitimate evidence) that, “British or the loyalist that fled from the United States to Canada in the fight for independence of the United States are really the true enemies of the United States. The enemies of Freedom and Democracy.”[/B] Your intellectual grand mal seizure (you’ll call it a response) should be a spectacular disaster as try to prove your pigswill.


$1:
Continue to live in denial that is what anglo-canadians are good doing.


Coming from the conquered colony, that really doesn’t hold much water – have fun here in ENGLISH North America!

   



canada_bruno @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:01 pm

Hmmm, why would the people in Lower Canada opt to help the Americans against the English? Hmmmmm. Couldn't have anything to do with not wanting to be totally surrounded by the country that defeated them could it? By this time, France has pretty much abandoned North America. The French you speak of are in Quebec. I'm sure the thought of being a speck in the middle of a big English continent must have scared the hell out of the average Francophone.

The loyalists did not flee the United States, as in fleeing the fight for independence. They were English subjects, who felt loyal to the crown. They wanted to remain in a land where the English crown still ruled. Is that so wrong? Most people feel loyalty to their home country. Why label these people as enemies of Freedom and democracy for having the same tendency as most other people?

   



_747 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:25 pm

$1:
Are you actually theorizing the idiotic notion that France helped the American Revolutionaries in their actions against British rule solely to gain back former New France?!?


Duh, ah yeah

The seven year war was also known in the US, as the French Indian War. There was two competing fur trade routes, the St. Lawrence Seaway (French) and Mohawk river (American).

http://www.philaprintshop.com/frchintx.html

This was a source of friction between the two colonies, so there was no love between these two colonies. So seventeen years After the colony is lost, France says hey to the Americans, you know what, we are now buddies, and we are just going to help you because we like you. If that's what you think, smoke some more.

$1:
Secondly, New France ceased to exist on September 13, 1759. It became the British colony of Quebec


Good of you to acknowledge Quebec, let's have another look at the picture again. http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html
Hey is that Ontario in there somewhere? Wow it is Ontario or Quebec as you indicated. My point exactly!

$1:
Prove it. I’d like to see your meagre cognitive abilities grapple with this historical fuck-up. Let’s see how you demonstrate (with verifiable, irrefutable and legitimate evidence) that, “British or the loyalist that fled from the United States to Canada in the fight for independence of the United States are really the true enemies of the United States. The enemies of Freedom and Democracy.” Your intellectual grand mal seizure (you’ll call it a response) should be a spectacular disaster as try to prove your pigswill.


Obviously you are a loyalist monarch lover. Why don't you go down to say Virginia and hang out in a bar and have a discussion about the side you supported in the war of 1812 or where you truly stood in their struggle for independence.

$1:
Coming from the conquered colony, that really doesn’t hold much water – have fun here in ENGLISH North America!


Section 133 of the British North America Act is the French part of that Act.
The last time I looked all Government websites are French, as many business websites. This is a United States, North America, not an English North America. Once again, go to the US and tell them, its an English North America. What you will get, is no Sir, it is an American North America.

You talk out of your ass, and nothing you say will alter what is irrefutable facts.

Maybe it's time Ottawa, became Ottawa, Quebec. What do you think? That could be something the PQ or the Bloq could push for..

_747

   



Dan74 @ Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:58 pm

It really is a small matter.
Ontario is Ontario.....
Not our fault the French have a habitof losing wars.Its getting to be their legecy.
747 you are just trying to cause shit so allow me to say fine.You did that.
Congrads
So the french in Quebec are a conquered race.Get over it and move on.
Besides its not like Quebec is being ruled under an iron curtain.
A simple argument I know and I could get into the battles and how Quebec city was saved from the Amercan Army by a snow storm and the who did what but in the end.England beat France,States beat England,Than States tied with England,and so on and so on.

   



RoyalHighlander @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:53 am

Id like to see things get back to a more friendly state here folks... If you dont like a thread some one has started, then ignore it and stay away from it, if you must comment on it,, try to avoid the name calling and just state your rebuttal in a polite manner.. But calling other members idiots etc because you dont agree with what they posted is not a proper way to reply to a thread/post...

   



dgthe3 @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:01 am

Hey, if Ontario rightfully belongs to Quebec, which was a French colony, shouldn't we give The Hudson's Bay Company (now HBC) all of the land that they owned? But wait, what about the time before the white man got here, doesn't the land actually belong to the aboriginal people? But weren't the animals here before them?

In conclusion, it is nonsense to think that Ontario belongs to Quebec, it rightfully belongs to the animals that once lived here and their decendants.

   



Optinum @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:39 am

_747 _747:

Today's Quebec certainly is not a reflection of the original Quebec, nor the Quebec that was put forward by King George. Quebec was eventually split into two, to become lower Canada (Quebec) and upper Canada(Ontario). When the Dominion of Canada was created Lower Canada and Upper Canada were joined to become one. All other provinces were eventually admitted to become the country we are today. Which came first, the chicken or the egg. Quebec or Canada, or is Quebec and Canada, one in the same? Can Quebec truly separate from itself? If Quebec were to go its own way should it not keep the name Canada?


_747

th original quebec was canada, and quebec was just a city. and sure its not a reflection of the original canada, because they were no canadians only canadiens. canada is a land, even in the time of new france, we were canadiens not french. the time of the union was a sick time, it was the time of the patriot rebellion too!!
on this very days, diference betwenne canadians et quebecer are strong, because de biggest difference of us is that us quebecer did not forget where we come from, so is much easy to seperate ourself from the english-american line.

   



_747 @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:16 am

The point of my thread is simple, should the PQ expand to Ontario, given the various attitudes out there, I believe yes.

Point #1

The American Colony did not like the French colony, or vice versa, because of the Competing Fur Trade Routes.

Point #2

The colony was lost in 1759. And these are the said lands
http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html.

Point #3

The year 1776, The only reason the United States exists! Is because France helped them, and for no other reason, but to get the said lands back!

$1:
It really is a small matter.
Ontario is Ontario.....
Not our fault the French have a habitof losing wars.Its getting to be their legecy


Point #4

The cost of this pursuit for said lands http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html. cost France an astranomical amount of money, and this cost was being passed onto the people of France. The Year 1789 France begins its revolution, which was to ROCK Europe for thirty years. Napoleon dominated Europe, and through various forces was brought down. Of course English Historians will play up the Battle of Waterloo, how this Wellington out maneuvred Napoleon. The Fact is Napoleon escaped from his prison, rallied a force of about 100,000 troops verses 1 million troops of four countries. Hardly a fair fight. So when I hear about 15 kids in the high schools out west ganging up on one kid, I can see where they learn't this behavior from.

Point #5

The war of 1812 was fought by British Forces and American Forces while the poeple of the Canadian colony stood by. Because France was preoccupied with their 30 year revolution that brought down the "Ancien Regime of Europe" the Americans lost and subsequently got their white house burned down.

Point #6

In the American's Declaration of Independence, they cried out for the aid of the supreme force of this world. Their prayer's were answered in the form of the French coming to their aid. The American's made a deal, point blank. Because King Louis the fourteen or fifteen one of those Louis was executed and France was engulfed in their internal and external struggle, the colony and the deal was lost in the sands of time.

Point #7

The British Monarch made a deal with the Francophones to keep them on side. The attitudes over the course of time demonstrates that the deal was not entered into, in good faith, which flies in the face of Ancien Regime of Europe.

Point #8

Quebec is continuously under attack or more specifically the French Language presence is, because the Anglo Canadians refuse to accept or respect a deal that was made before the creation of Canada, and in fact was the single deal that allowed Canada to manifest itself to its present form.

The last Point

The statue of Liberty commemorates the Quebec Fact in North America!

$1:
Hey, if Ontario rightfully belongs to Quebec, which was a French colony, shouldn't we give The Hudson's Bay Company (now HBC) all of the land that they owned?


Let's have another look at the picture of the old colony
http://www.canadiana.org/citm/imagepopu ... 759_e.html
From what I believe were the lands possessed by the HBC, and looking at this map, I have no problems in the HBC reclaiming those lands.

Should the PQ Expand to Ontario?

   



_747 @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:28 am

Optinum Optinum:

diference betwenne canadians et quebecer are strong, because de biggest difference of us is that us quebecer did not forget where we come from, so is much easy to seperate ourself from the english-american line.


I have lived in Ontario for the last 18 years, and I have watched the various attitudes at work. Anglos try to reinvent history to what they want to be true, rather than what is true. We of Quebec (present or past Quebec) must ensure the Facts are out on the table, in plain view.

_747

   



alsocanadian @ Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:39 am

Hey Dan74 when you said "the french in Quebec are a conquered race" you were wrong, dude!
Who has ruled the country for all of modern history? Where are these people from? What do they speak in the halls of power?
The english won the battle, but who is winning the war? :wink:
IAM(also)CANADIAN

   



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