The English Quebecers are wasting a huge opportunity?

[QUOTE BY= dino] [QUOTE BY= Benz] I have put the finger right on the problem. You do not have a good definition of the word sovereignty. GB is sovereign, France, Germany, USA, Italy, Russia, Mexico, they are all sovereign states.[/QUOTE] There all sovereign because they are countries. Quebec has never been a country!!!!!!! I was watching a show on CBC that is called 'au courant' were the show is showing english Canada what is going on in french canada. A topic came up about what's going on about separation in french Canada so the host went to Quebec to ask people about what's up with separation. And at the end of the show they showed in dec 2004 a leger poll showed only 31% of quebecers were in favor of separation! for you to think quebec is going to become a country is wishful thinking![/QUOTE]Almost at the same period, the federal gov't did the same survey and got the result of 49% in favor of sovereignty. It is YOUR wishful thinking to imagine your separation nightmare as a dead one. The support of sovereignty is making progress. 40% in 1980, 49.4% in 1995. At the same time, the federal is regressing and the perspective of seeing it renewed for good is desapearing every single time the liberals are elected. You can't predict the death of a politcal movement you do not understand. The federalists did that mistake so many times. Every single time the centralists do win against the progress, they think the "separation" is dead for good. Each time they think that, the sovereignty came up stronger later. You cannot fight something you do not understand. As I can see, you are not willing at all to understand it.

In 1995 people didn't even understand the question!! If the PQ was so certain on sovereignty they would ask a simple question to Quebecers " Do you want Quebec to separate, become a country and have no political ties or economical ties to Canada. Yes or No.?" The Bloc got 48% of the popular vote in the June election. They polled Bloc voters to ask them if they were in favor of Quebec becoming a country. 30% of Bloc voters said no.Do the math,that would make it about 31% of all Quebecers in favor of separation. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[QUOTE BY= dino] In 1995 people didn't even understand the question!![/QUOTE] What are you saying dino ? Are you saying you couldn't understand the question so that means neither could Québécers or are you saying that Québécers voted massively on a question regarding their future and their children's future without understanding the question or what it meant ? [QUOTE BY= dino]If the PQ was so certain on sovereignty they would ask a simple question to Quebecers " Do you want Quebec to separate, become a country and have no political ties or economical ties to Canada. Yes or No.?"!![/QUOTE] That's not a question. It's a scare tactic of the worst kind and Québécers (believe it or not) do see through this kind of harassment and they don't buy into it. You'll have to come up with something more realistic, less condescending and arrogant before they listen to you. Does Canada have political and economical ties with the U.S. ? The answer is yes. Is Canada a sovereign nation ? The answer is yes (for now at least). Why would you want to use a question that implies that this kind of relationship would not be feasible for a sovereign Québec ? When are you planning to send Québécers into concentration camps while you're at it ? Wake up and smell the roses. Charest is presently in the pit of popularity polls while sovereignty is constantly gaining ground. If you truly believe in Canada, your efforts would be better served if you put them into stopping Canada's full annexation into the U.S.

Michou Canada has ties with the united states because both countries agree to it!!! It's not scaring Quebec;it's being realistic. I heard a Bloc MP saying how a sovereign Quebec should have a relationship with Canada like the European union. Does he ever stop to think,what if people in Canada don't want that!?!?!?!!!!! You guys think you can break apart a country and people in the ROC will want to be friends with people who could of cared less about the opinions of english speaking canadians. The Parti Quebecois make separation seem like it will be heaven having a country but they always seem to forget to tell Quebecers what you would lose if you were to become a country! Quebec right now has a 110 billion dollar debt. If you were to separate the federal government would split the federal debt (510 billion) in one quater (127 billion) and give it Quebec. Quebec with a population of 7.5 million would have a debt of 237 billion. Interests rates would soar and what do you think the businesses in Quebec would do? They'd pick up there things and move to Toronto. The equalization payments would end which happen to help fund the arts and culture in Quebec. Canada would be fine because all the wealth of natural resources is in english Canada. Did you know that 60 billion comes from oil and natural gas to Ottawa. If they taxed like they do in Norway it would be 90 to 100 billion. That's more then having Quebec in conferderation gives towards Ottawa. For every immigrant that lands in Quebec, Ottawa give 3800$. For every immigrant that lands in Ontario they get 800$ from Ottawa. A separate Quebec would have to figure out a way to pay for new immigrants because Ottawa wouldn't be there to help you. The issue of separation is so irrational. It's this sense that your going to have a referendum and win then after victory you'll figure out how to deal with everything that will change. Bernard Landry is up for a leadership review in June I hope he has the brains to realize that he needs to tell Quebecers that if there is another referendum the question will be clear and that Quebecers will know before the vote what they will lose! Citizenship, currency, passport, equalization payments that would force Quebecers to have higher taxes to make up for it and a 237 billion dollar debt for a population of 7.5 million. Not to mention a divided Quebec and Canadians wanting very little to do with Quebec. Like I said before the issue of soveregnty is extremely irrational. Quebec a country? I hardly see it happening. Most Quebecers, 70% don't want separation and I bet if you polled Quebecers the vast majority would want a constitutional deal...... that would be alot more rational then breaking apart the country!

WARNING TO ALL SUSCEPTIBLE READERS. MICHOU HAS GONE OVER THE TOP AGAIN. YOU MAY PASS ON OR GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL AND DO NOT COLLECT 200$. [QUOTE BY= dino] Michou Canada has ties with the united states because both countries agree to it!!! [/QUOTE] And Canada would not agree to have any ties with a neighbourly nation that is democratic, pacifist, open to the world and with whom it shares a common history. Very realistic indeed. [QUOTE BY= dino]It's not scaring Quebec;it's being realistic.[/QUOTE] No it's not. As they say, "money talks and bullshit walks". You are on your own footing on this one. [QUOTE BY= dino] I heard a Bloc MP saying how a sovereign Quebec should have a relationship with Canada like the European union. Does he ever stop to think,what if people in Canada don't want that!?!?!?!!!!! [/QUOTE] There is also such a thing called, "coming to one's senses." [QUOTE BY= dino]You guys think you can break apart a country and people in the ROC will want to be friends with people who could of cared less about the opinions of english speaking canadians.[/QUOTE] It's got nothing to do with friendship. Let me return your own comment : "Why be friends with people who couldn't care less about the opinions of french-speaking canadians." As I've just written, it has nothing to do with friendship. Hell, my ex in-laws and my current ones are english canadians. I guess that makes my daughter french-english canadian, eh ? Do you think they'll still call me friend after I 'separate' or become 'sovereign' ? Ties run deep between english and french canadians. We share a common history and similar values. We are all North Americans. Think about it. [QUOTE BY= dino]The Parti Quebecois make separation seem like it will be heaven having a country but they always seem to forget to tell Quebecers what you would lose if you were to become a country! [/QUOTE] Ever thought about what they have to gain ? Your comment only reinforces a lesson I taught my daughter young : "Don't hold on, enjoy giving, be the best you can be and the rest will take care of itself." [QUOTE BY= dino]Quebec right now has a 110 billion dollar debt. If you were to separate the federal government would split the federal debt (510 billion) in one quater (127 billion) and give it Quebec. Quebec with a population of 7.5 million would have a debt of 237 billion. Interests rates would soar and what do you think the businesses in Quebec would do? They'd pick up there things and move to Toronto.[/QUOTE] Debts. Bummer. Too many countries are laden with debts. The U.S. is the worst offender of them all. It hasn't stopped them from bombing innocent lives into smithereens. Do you think Québécers will be North America's new terrorist target or the next aggressor ? You are not being realistic again. Québec has a qualified workforce, it has consumers, its has natural ressources. But nope, according to you, business people will walk away from all of it because Québécers will suddenly have become dangerous indebted folks. How scared of Québécers are you dino ? Do you want to talk about it ? [QUOTE BY= dino]The equalization payments would end which happen to help fund the arts and culture in Quebec.[/QUOTE] I'm so tempted to tell you to go #$%& yourself for that comment. That's like saying that without the U.S. cultural influence, there would be no Canadian arts. [QUOTE BY= dino]Canada would be fine because all the wealth of natural resources is in english Canada. [/QUOTE] #$%&?%#$$? [QUOTE BY= dino]Did you know that 60 billion comes from oil and natural gas to Ottawa. If they taxed like they do in Norway it would be 90 to 100 billion. That's more then having Quebec in conferderation gives towards Ottawa.[/QUOTE] That comment is completely off the bender. [QUOTE BY= dino]For every immigrant that lands in Quebec, Ottawa give 3800$. For every immigrant that lands in Ontario they get 800$ from Ottawa. A separate Quebec would have to figure out a way to pay for new immigrants because Ottawa wouldn't be there to help you.[/QUOTE] I'm a full grown Québécer adult and I don't need anyone (and least of all someone like you) telling me how to tie my shoelaces. [QUOTE BY= dino]The issue of separation is so irrational. [/QUOTE] You certainly are. [QUOTE BY= dino]It's this sense that your going to have a referendum and win then after victory you'll figure out how to deal with everything that will change. [/QUOTE] Another reinforcement from my child rearing days: " Only one thing never changes and that is change. Learn to welcome it, never fear it and if you want or need to, provoke it. Given half a chance, the unknown always become known." My daughter is today a sixteen-year-old and I believe her to be more mature than you are being right now. [QUOTE BY= dino]Bernard Landry is up for a leadership review in June I hope he has the brains to realize that he needs to tell Quebecers that if there is another referendum the question will be clear and that Quebecers will know before the vote what they will lose![/QUOTE] The last time I looked, Landry had his brain intact and in the same place. [QUOTE BY= dino] bla bla bla ... I bet if you polled Quebecers the vast majority would want a constitutional deal...... that would be alot more rational then breaking apart the country! [/QUOTE] I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Now go tell that to all Canadians. Tell them that Québec wants a new constitutional deal and that it wants to be recognized as a distinct society. Get back to me once you've got a majority on board.

[QUOTE BY= michou] "Why be friends with people who couldn't care less about the opinions of french-speaking canadians."[/QUOTE] Because you would need Canada. And have you ever realized that the prime ministers who have been hardest on Quebec happen to be french canadians?! French Canadian prime ministers have cared little about what quebec nationalists have to say because.....? (I've never been able to figure out why) What do you have to gain with an independent Quebec? Being able to wave the Quebec flag at the olympics? Separation in Quebec will never happen. The thing that bothers me as how much Canada is stuck in the past and can't move forward. Equalization payments are what give you money to pay for your social programs!! Of course those payments have to do with funding arts and culture in Quebec. I'm not saying that because of Ottawa you have your culture I'm saying that you need money to keep all those things going. [QUOTE BY= michou][QUOTE BY= dino] bla bla bla ... I bet if you polled Quebecers the vast majority would want a constitutional deal...... that would be alot more rational then breaking apart the country! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Now go tell that to all Canadians. Tell them that Québec wants a new constitutional deal and that it wants to be recognized as a distinct society. Get back to me once you've got a majority on board.[/QUOTE] It isn't going to happen unless the push for a constitutional deal comes from Quebec. When 48% vote Bloc it doesn't send a great message to english Canada. Now which party would be best to form a constitutional deal.........the Liberals who left Quebec out in 1982......Stephen Harper whose views are so far right and he can't even handle bilingualism laws......or the NDP who have repeatedly stated that they would be flexible with Quebec and there values happen to represent those of alot of Quebecers.

[QUOTE BY= dino] In 1995 people didn't even understand the question!![/quote]Don't waste your time. It is in your head. You do not understand sovereignty so, you can't tell. [QUOTE]If the PQ was so certain on sovereignty they would ask a simple question to Quebecers " Do you want Quebec to separate, become a country and have no political ties or economical ties to Canada. Yes or No.?"[/QUOTE]No wander why Meech failed after a reasonning like that. I will never understand why the English Canadians are so unwilling to understand Québec. [quote]The Bloc got 48% of the popular vote in the June election. They polled Bloc voters to ask them if they were in favor of Quebec becoming a country. 30% of Bloc voters said no.Do the math,that would make it about 31% of all Quebecers in favor of separation. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE]BS! [QUOTE]Does he ever stop to think,what if people in Canada don't want that!?[/QUOTE]If Canada does not want that, then it is plain simple separation. But if Canada does not want that, it means we were right to go on with the sovereignty project. Bravo Dino! [QUOTE]French Canadian prime ministers have cared little about what quebec nationalists have to say because.....? (I've never been able to figure out why)[/QUOTE]My call is that it is easier to control the power at Ottawa this way. Divide and conquer. Quebec is useful for the liberals to rule all over Canada. Too much to explain, we should make a different thread for this. [QUOTE]I'm saying that you need money to keep all those things going.[/QUOTE]The need is virtual and the money is a jack in the box's secret. The Newfoundland issue is the best example of it. [QUOTE]When 48% vote Bloc it doesn't send a great message to english Canada.[/QUOTE]It sends a heck of great message to English Canada. It says we are pissed off. If you do not read it right, it is your damn problem. [QUOTE]or the NDP who have repeatedly stated that they would be flexible with Quebec and there values happen to represent those of alot of Quebecers.[/QUOTE]NDP is always a source of deception. Maybe one day they will get their heads out of their ases. It would be nice! [QUOTE]The issue of separation is so irrational.[/QUOTE]It is because you do not understand and are not willing to. [QUOTE]Ottawa wouldn't be there to help you[/QUOTE]Ottawa mess up everything it does. Everything! We are f***ing tired to see the big mouth Denis Coderre telling to the immigrants to vote liberals and vote no. [QUOTE]will be clear [/QUOTE]Once again, you do not know what sovereignty project is about so, you can't clarify a damn thing. [QUOTE]Not to mention a divided Quebec and Canadians wanting very little to do with Quebec.[/QUOTE]It is not the opinion of the former prime minister of Ontario, Mike Harris. He said he would keep up the same relationship with an independent Québec. No other prime ministers (other than the ones from the LPC) have commited themselve to entertain bad relationships with Québec. Even the our southern neighbors said it won't change a thing. [QUOTE]Quebec a country? I hardly see it happening. [/QUOTE]It is like love, it will hit you and you are less expincting it. [QUOTE]I bet if you polled Quebecers the vast majority would want a constitutional deal[/QUOTE]Almost all the sovereignists would be in favor of such thing. You definitly do not understand a damn thing about sovereignty. Most of the sovereignists are former federalists who lost confidence in the federal system.

"Why be friends with people who couldn't care less about the opinions of french-speaking canadians." Because you would need Canada. And have you ever realized that the prime ministers who have been hardest on Quebec happen to be french canadians?! Why do people in english Canada get blamed for not having Quebec in the constitution when it was a french canadian who left you out and another this last decade that hasn't even cared about Quebec being in the constitution. (I've never been able to figure out why) What do you have to gain with an independent Quebec? Being able to wave the Quebec flag at the olympics? Separation in Quebec will never happen. The thing that bothers me as how much Canada is stuck in the past and can't move forward. Equalization payments are what give you money to pay for your social programs!! Of course those payments have to do with funding arts and culture in Quebec. I'm not saying that because of Ottawa you have your culture I'm saying that you need money to keep all those things going. (michou-I bet if you polled Quebecers the vast majority would want a constitutional deal...... that would be alot more rational then breaking apart the country! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Now go tell that to all Canadians. Tell them that Québec wants a new constitutional deal and that it wants to be recognized as a distinct society. Get back to me once you've got a majority on board.) It isn't going to happen unless the push for a constitutional deal comes from Quebec. When 48% vote Bloc it doesn't send a great message to english Canada.Especially when 30% of those voters don't believe Quebec should be a country. Now which party would be best to form a constitutional deal.........the Liberals who left Quebec out in 1982......Stephen Harper whose views are so far right and he can't even handle bilingualism laws......or the NDP who have repeatedly stated that they would be flexible with Quebec and there values happen to represent those of alot of Quebecers.

[QUOTE]Did you know that 60 billion comes from oil and natural gas to Ottawa. If they taxed like they do in Norway it would be 90 to 100 billion. That's more then having Quebec in conferderation gives towards Ottawa.[QUOTE/] Looks like you omitted to mention the fact that in 50 years there will be no more oil in alberta, when Québec will still remain in possession of all the natural ressources.

All the ressources are in english canada ? Oh really ? Looks like I missed an episode, or maybe the entire show... As for oil money, maybe you ommited to mention the fact that in 50 years, oil will be depleted, and that Québec is considered trought Canada as the second province when it comes to natural ressources, and we are not talking about human ressources yet.

Alberta's only has more then 50 years? After Saudia Arabia is drained in 80 years they will be looking towards Alberta. Alberta has some of the biggest reserves in the world. (That's how were able to feed our beastly next door neighbors.) Most of your resources in Quebec are in the northern part of Quebec. That's were the Cree live and they said in 1995 if Quebec would have separated they would have kept there land and made it a province and kept it in Canada. So this idea that Quebec would have it's resources if it was a country is wrong the mining industry is in the hands of the natives in Quebec and they'd prefer to stay in Canada.