The English Quebecers are wasting a huge opportunity?

Bienvenue à Vive Benz avec un excellent sujet pour commencer. I too wondered about this one way back and my best answer to this day would have to do with the good old correctness issue in front of the "majority", aka the tyranny of the majority. Make sure you read my Correctness article. Now put yourself in their shoes for a moment, say you are a Quebec anglo that see some value in pursuing Quebec Sovereingty (I hope you understand that there are some serious issues with it - but that is an aside issue), you now become a minority within the majority (of anglos in Quebec). They will now call you a turncoat (le vire-capot! déjà-vu???), harrass you&family&friends and you will most likely end up jobless with no friends and likely will have to say bye-bye to your mother language and deep-integrate with the majority. What would you really do? Be honest. What is this huge opportunity? Do you really understand how much aggravation you would have to endure on this??? You are much better then to disengage from politics, which many do, even if they may very well agree that Quebec Sovereingty may be something worth further looking into, given the sorry state of Canadian Sovereignty. BTW the same would happen say you are in the ROC and really would like to help the FHQs or the First-Nations folks. Same again if you are a Québécois and really try to help the FHQs and try to make Canada less dysfunctional (without becoming a Chretien/Dion type of lackey which made it more dysfunctional). Same if you try getting the First Nations getting their own Sovereignty in Quebec. Same (&probably worst)if you are a First Nation in Quebec and want to speak up on QUebec Sovereingty. In all cases, you will experience exactly the same tyranny by your own folks. The tyranny of the majority is that you are far better off to stick to apathy, deep-integrate and focus on maximize personal gains. I personally think that Canada, First Nations and Quebec Sovereignties can all be pursued together in a non zero-sum game. Although I am minority on this (but not alone!), I believe that Vive at least provides an environment to raise awareness on this matter. I hope discussions with the various kind of sovereignists in 2005 will focus on this aspect rather than the well known and entranched stances. A bientôt

[QUOTE]Those who believe Ottawa should be god.[/QUOTE] Translation: those who believe in a coutnry where the federal government puts the "F" in federation. [QUOTE]when they are opposed to the central federal system mostly influenced by the English part of Canada, etc... [/QUOTE] Benz, are you saying that the ROC has more influence in federal politics than the French-Canadians? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> Stop telling us that everyone has a say, but Quebec. Most Canadians have been hit hard by globalization, but again, if ANY province has been given special treatment--it's Quebec. Facts are facts. I do find it interesting that the FHQ get a lot of sympathy from the Francophones, despite the fact that they get signs in French all across the country, while Anglos in Quebec are picked on by racist sign laws and Orwellian language police. I live in Toronto, and I can tell you, we have signs in a thousand languages, and English is doing just fine, thanks.

Perturbed: French signs have done dickall for the assimilation of FHQs; and the angloes in Quebec are doing extremely well in spite of the franco signs and 101; Quebec did not shutdown the anglo schools either as the Orangemen did to the FHQs; get your perspective right if you want some credibility

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] Perturbed: French signs have done dickall for the assimilation of FHQs; and the angloes in Quebec are doing extremely well in spite of the franco signs and 101; Quebec did not shutdown the anglo schools either as the Orangemen did to the FHQs; get your perspective right if you want some credibility[/QUOTE] But Quebec's courts have declared the sign-laws illegal. It's clear that the leaders of Quebec have tried to make the anglos feel unwelcome. I also know that as of 1995, there were actually more French schools in Ontario than English school in Quebec. It's not the end of the world, but since Quebec is mostly French-Canadian, sign laws are unnecessary to protec the French language, and makes driving unsafe for anglos.

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] It's not the end of the world, but since Quebec is mostly French-Canadian, sign laws are unnecessary to protec the French language, and makes driving unsafe for anglos.[/QUOTE] Okay, if you're too stupid to figure something as simple as signs on the side of the road, you probably shouldn't be driving. I mean, our signs are almost identical. Sure we have different languages, but both our words for the four cardinal directions and measures of distance are almost exactly the same. And if you can't figure it out that a big red octagon means stop in any language, than I suggest you get a really good insurance plan, cause your going to need it.

its got u discussing non-issues, which is the goal of this type of media coverage. the ability of the state to generate revenues at gun point. Dennis Baker

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] It's not the end of the world, but since Quebec is mostly French-Canadian, sign laws are unnecessary to protec the French language, and makes driving unsafe for anglos.[/QUOTE] Perturbed: please base your claim on facts and not road signs. Once again, anglos in Quebec are doing ***extremely well***, and FHQs are not. Anglo kids are still speaking english and their children will still speak English, they can still write in English and so will their children and grandchildren, they have their own non subsidized media where they can say whatever they want, they are not assimilated into the franco lot or rely on government handouts (known as fed services jobs). You have got to read Lester's Black Book and detox yourself from your Orangeman upbringing. You will see once you read that book that your case is Orangeman league stuff.

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] I also know that as of 1995, there were actually more French schools in Ontario than English school in Quebec. [/QUOTE] There are apparently 400000 francos in Ontario. How many are getting assimilated? How many anglos in Quebec and how many anglos are getting assimilated? How many anglo parent run schools run by anglos have ever been shutdown by law in Quebec? Compare that with Ontario and you will understand why francos sometimes get very irritated over this topic.

Actually gaulois, things have changed in Québec and Perturbed will LOVE me for this (oh my !!!) Anglos are being integrated into the Québec culture. It doesn't mean that French is ultimately safe from North American assimilation into the English language though. We have discussed this before and you already know my thoughts about it. For Perturbed to make the assumption that the use of multi-lingual signs in his community does not affect the well-being of English is a poor assumption at best. Come on Perturbed, you are more intelligent than that. Having 300 million fellow Anglophones on the continent should help, non ? Stop being an 'angryphone'Perturbed. <a href="http://http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3546031">We are tous Québécois </a> Jan 6th 2005 | MONTREAL From The Economist print edition English Quebeckers learn to live and love* in French TRADITIONALLY, the English-speaking minority in Quebec kept itself pretty much to itself, in the leafy western suburbs of Montreal or the farming towns to its south. The Anglos had little interest in mixing with the province's French-speaking majority and little ability to do so: most spoke French poorly and infrequently, if at all. So goes the stereotype of the Anglo-Quebecker in the province's (French-language) literature, film and television. If this was once accurate, it is no longer so. Now more than two-thirds of Quebec's 750,000 English-speakers can also speak French—double the proportion of the 1970s. Even in those rich ghettos in western Montreal, French is spoken almost as much as English. “The stereotype has evolved from a real man to a straw man,” jokes Jack Jedwab of Montreal's Association for Canadian Studies and the author of a recent government report on Quebec's English-speakers. The report noted other signs of integration. As Anglos learn to speak French younger and better, frequently choosing to study in French schools, there has been a surge in marriage (or at least coupling) outside the community. Now, 40% of them have non-anglophone partners, and a quarter have paired with French-speakers. Closer contact has eased tensions between what were once known as “the two solitudes” who share Quebec. Even the most militant English-speakers—dubbed the “angryphones”—seem less outraged by the provincial government's efforts to promote French. However, several court challenges to Law 101, the province's strict language law, remain pending. Passed in 1977, this law has made French the first language of government, business and education. Only children who have a parent who was educated in English in Canada can attend an English-speaking public school; all others, including immigrants from Britain, must study in French—or in private schools. Law 101 has in turn created an economic incentive to learn French. Without it, a young anglophone is twice as likely to be unemployed; if he has a job, he can expect to earn only 65% as much as a bilingual colleague. The result: many of the province's traditional English institutions are declining, and some are dying. Since the 1970s, enrolment in English-speaking schools has fallen by 60%. Dozens have closed their doors, or switched to French. Six more in the Montreal area are due to close in September. Quebec's only English-language daily newspaper, Montreal's Gazette, is in similar straits. In the early 1980s, its Saturday edition sold 280,000 copies; now it sells 163,000. English universities are faring better, because they face no language restrictions. They are recruiting French-Canadians keen to study in English. All of this has implications for Quebec's politics. Since its rise in the 1960s, the fortunes of the secessionist movement in the province have risen and fallen in unison with tensions over language. When the separatist Parti Québécois (PQ) was first elected to the provincial government in the 1970s, English was still the language of power and public conversation—even though French-speakers outnumbered those of English by six to one. One of the PQ's first acts was to push through Law 101. Within five years, 100,000 English-speakers and many businesses left the province. Many of those who stayed have learnt French. They have been joined by English-speaking migrants from Asian countries and the Caribbean, whose children now speak French, if compulsorily. With linguistic tension much reduced, the sovereignty movement will need a new cause around which to rally, says Deirdre Meintel, an anthropologist at the University of Montreal who specialises in minorities. Quebec provides her with rich material: both English- and French-speakers are both a majority and a minority depending on whether the reference point is Canada, North America or just the province. Perhaps that explains why most francophone Quebeckers still feel French is threatened in the province and English secure, while anglophones say the opposite. Even so, according to Ms Meintel, Anglophone openness to French is reciprocated in less “francophone chauvinism” and a more inclusive society. “You can be Québécois now without having spoken French all your life,” she says. “You can still have an accent.” So the language issue itself is now neither grave nor acute. * by michou : you have no idea what you are missing. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

[QUOTE BY= michou] English Quebeckers learn to live and love* in French * by michou : you have no idea what you are missing. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> [/QUOTE] <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Benz, are you saying that the ROC has more influence in federal politics than the French-Canadians? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> Stop telling us that everyone has a say, but Quebec. Most Canadians have been hit hard by globalization, but again, if ANY province has been given special treatment--it's Quebec. Facts are facts. I do find it interesting that the FHQ get a lot of sympathy from the Francophones, despite the fact that they get signs in French all across the country, while Anglos in Quebec are picked on by racist sign laws and Orwellian language police.[/quote]huh? [quote]I live in Toronto[/quote]Ahhh ok, it explains all! You are so way off the track, I doubt elaborating the discussion will lead us somewhere. Gaulois, [quote]Now put yourself in their shoes for a moment, say you are a Quebec anglo that see some value in pursuing Quebec Sovereingty (I hope you understand that there are some serious issues with it - but that is an aside issue), you now become a minority within the majority (of anglos in Quebec). They will now call you a turncoat (le vire-capot! déjà-vu???), harrass you&family&friends and you will most likely end up jobless with no friends and likely will have to say bye-bye to your mother language and deep-integrate with the majority. What would you really do? Be honest. What is this huge opportunity?[/quote]I think you are confusing Québec with another province. Unless you are talking about how bad an anglo will be considered by his own fellas if he becomes sympatic to Québec's issues. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> And you are missing the point. Even the federalists in Québec have goals about the future of Québec. Distinct society, doesn't it recall you something? [quote]Same if you try getting the First Nations getting their own Sovereignty in Quebec[/quote]You have a lot to learn about Québec politics my friend. Does the La Paix des Braves treaty reminds you something? Do you know what is it? With this kind of treaty, the Crees are recognized as a NATION and they get sovereignty on their land as no one other native nations have. The Innus are getting something similar and the Inuits are on their way. All this is possible because of the open mind of the sovereignist. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [quote]if you are a First Nation in Quebec and want to speak up on QUebec Sovereingty[/quote]Not today. You can bet people like James Gabriel are fed up about the liberals either in Québec and Ottawa. Bashing the sovereignists in exchange of money is no more a common game for the Autochtones. They are learning to know where are their best interests. The great peace treaty has set an incredible mark on the history of our relations with them. You can bet the Nisga'a would have prefer to deal with people like the Québec's sovereignists rather than their actual neighbors. [quote]I hope discussions with the various kind of sovereignists in 2005 will focus on this aspect rather than the well known and entranched stances[/quote]It rather depends on you. The sovereignists have a solution and you don't. That said, we are getting a bit too far from the main topic I raised here. The role-play the anglo of Québec could do and they don't. I blame them a lot more than I do in regards of a westeners who know too little about Québec or got it all wrong. At least, they have an excuse of not being close enough.

Un peu condescendant le language cher Benz. La Paix des Braves a été bien discuté ici aussi. J'ai essayé de répondre à ta question de façon bien sincère en terme de la tyrannie de la majorité, quelque chose que je connnais très bien. Si tu te crois plus fin, tant mieux pour toi et bonne chance à Vive.

[QUOTE BY= michou] Actually gaulois, things have changed in Québec and Perturbed will LOVE me for this (oh my !!!) Anglos are being integrated into the Québec culture. It doesn't mean that French is ultimately safe from North American assimilation into the English language though. We have discussed this before and you already know my thoughts about it. For Perturbed to make the assumption that the use of multi-lingual signs in his community does not affect the well-being of English is a poor assumption at best. Come on Perturbed, you are more intelligent than that. Having 300 million fellow Anglophones on the continent should help, non ? Stop being an 'angryphone'Perturbed. <a href="http://http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3546031">We are tous Québécois </a> Jan 6th 2005 | MONTREAL From The Economist print edition English Quebeckers learn to live and love* in French TRADITIONALLY, the English-speaking minority in Quebec kept itself pretty much to itself, in the leafy western suburbs of Montreal or the farming towns to its south. The Anglos had little interest in mixing with the province's French-speaking majority and little ability to do so: most spoke French poorly and infrequently, if at all. So goes the stereotype of the Anglo-Quebecker in the province's (French-language) literature, film and television. If this was once accurate, it is no longer so. Now more than two-thirds of Quebec's 750,000 English-speakers can also speak French—double the proportion of the 1970s. Even in those rich ghettos in western Montreal, French is spoken almost as much as English. “The stereotype has evolved from a real man to a straw man,” jokes Jack Jedwab of Montreal's Association for Canadian Studies and the author of a recent government report on Quebec's English-speakers. The report noted other signs of integration. As Anglos learn to speak French younger and better, frequently choosing to study in French schools, there has been a surge in marriage (or at least coupling) outside the community. Now, 40% of them have non-anglophone partners, and a quarter have paired with French-speakers. Closer contact has eased tensions between what were once known as “the two solitudes” who share Quebec. Even the most militant English-speakers—dubbed the “angryphones”—seem less outraged by the provincial government's efforts to promote French. However, several court challenges to Law 101, the province's strict language law, remain pending. Passed in 1977, this law has made French the first language of government, business and education. Only children who have a parent who was educated in English in Canada can attend an English-speaking public school; all others, including immigrants from Britain, must study in French—or in private schools. Law 101 has in turn created an economic incentive to learn French. Without it, a young anglophone is twice as likely to be unemployed; if he has a job, he can expect to earn only 65% as much as a bilingual colleague. The result: many of the province's traditional English institutions are declining, and some are dying. Since the 1970s, enrolment in English-speaking schools has fallen by 60%. Dozens have closed their doors, or switched to French. Six more in the Montreal area are due to close in September. Quebec's only English-language daily newspaper, Montreal's Gazette, is in similar straits. In the early 1980s, its Saturday edition sold 280,000 copies; now it sells 163,000. English universities are faring better, because they face no language restrictions. They are recruiting French-Canadians keen to study in English. All of this has implications for Quebec's politics. Since its rise in the 1960s, the fortunes of the secessionist movement in the province have risen and fallen in unison with tensions over language. When the separatist Parti Québécois (PQ) was first elected to the provincial government in the 1970s, English was still the language of power and public conversation—even though French-speakers outnumbered those of English by six to one. One of the PQ's first acts was to push through Law 101. Within five years, 100,000 English-speakers and many businesses left the province. Many of those who stayed have learnt French. They have been joined by English-speaking migrants from Asian countries and the Caribbean, whose children now speak French, if compulsorily. With linguistic tension much reduced, the sovereignty movement will need a new cause around which to rally, says Deirdre Meintel, an anthropologist at the University of Montreal who specialises in minorities. Quebec provides her with rich material: both English- and French-speakers are both a majority and a minority depending on whether the reference point is Canada, North America or just the province. Perhaps that explains why most francophone Quebeckers still feel French is threatened in the province and English secure, while anglophones say the opposite. Even so, according to Ms Meintel, Anglophone openness to French is reciprocated in less “francophone chauvinism” and a more inclusive society. “You can be Québécois now without having spoken French all your life,” she says. “You can still have an accent.” So the language issue itself is now neither grave nor acute. * by michou : you have no idea what you are missing. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> [/QUOTE] What am I supposed to be surprised about? I already talked about this: English schools closed and anglophones left because Bill 101 made them unwelcome. Bill 101 was an illegal, unnecessary law. The reason the business back in the 1970s was mostly English was because the WORLD aws speaking English, and to do business with other countries you had to speak THEIR language. Notice how the period of separatism in the 1970s impoverished the city of Montreal, and turned Quebec into a have-not province. Good job. It's economics tha truns the world, not simply language. But don't let facts get in the way.

[QUOTE]Benz, are you saying that the ROC has more influence in federal politics than the French-Canadians? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> Stop telling us that everyone has a say, but Quebec. Most Canadians have been hit hard by globalization, but again, if ANY province has been given special treatment--it's Quebec. Facts are facts. I do find it interesting that the FHQ get a lot of sympathy from the Francophones, despite the fact that they get signs in French all across the country, while Anglos in Quebec are picked on by racist sign laws and Orwellian language police.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]huh?[/QUOTE] I was very clear with my thoughts. [quote]I live in Toronto[/quote] [QUOTE]Ahhh ok, it explains all![/QUOTE] Am I supposed to take that as an insult? Because I really don't appreciate it. You don't have to be a dick. [QUOTE]You are so way off the track, I doubt elaborating the discussion will lead us somewhere.[/QUOTE] I am bang on. The French run Canada. They may be business elites, but they're still French. They may not be socialists, but they're still French. If Quebec separated, you'd be run by the separatist business elites, rather than the federalist business elites. They'd still be French, and they'd still screw the average person, and pinheads such as yourself would still not have a clue.

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] You don't have to be a dick... pinheads such as yourself would still not have a clue. [/QUOTE] Hello Benz, So you are new at Vive. I wonder how long you will tolerate the abuse before leaving it like other Québecers did before you. Good luck with it anyway. It was fun just to come in and say a few words to support your post. Bye again Vive. I see nothing much has changed.