'Eco-pirate' Paul Watson is in danger of losing his boat
DrCaleb @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:15 pm
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal. The IWC has no formal authourity nor does the ICRW bind anyone to it that isn't a signatory. Any country that didn't join or opted out later on, is not bound in any way by IWC legislation.
The IWC is not a 'legal' body backed by treaty, you are correct. But Japan is still a signatory to it. Canada left the organization when they first banned whaling.
It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right.
jeff744 @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:23 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal. The IWC has no formal authourity nor does the ICRW bind anyone to it that isn't a signatory. Any country that didn't join or opted out later on, is not bound in any way by IWC legislation.
The IWC is not a 'legal' body backed by treaty, you are correct. But Japan is still a signatory to it. Canada left the organization when they first banned whaling.
It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right.
The US puts pressure on Japan every time they get moving in the direction of leaving.
Brenda @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:25 pm
$1:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal.
Actually, in Oklahoma, it is... You can't whale hunt there...
BartSimpson @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:08 pm
Gunnair Gunnair:
jeff744 jeff744:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Ack. Kill anybody yet?
I guess making a citizen's arrest of a pot smoker by holding him down till the cops come would be kind of similar.
Luckily he hasn't killed anyone that I know of, but with his record it is only a matter of time until somebody is killed. The tragedy is that until somebody does die nothing major will likely be done to end this group of terrorists.
More comparable would be holding somebody down while they were in the middle of a string of armed robberies doomed to end in the death of at least one innocent person.
What do you propose replaces Watson and his terrorists then? And I wonder, if you're terrorizing someone doing an illegal activity, is it still really the bad kind of terrorism?
Then you're saying Watson is a vigilante. As I recall you're not so fond of that kind of thing when Americans do it so why is it okay for Watson to do it?
Gunnair @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:22 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Gunnair Gunnair:
jeff744 jeff744:
Luckily he hasn't killed anyone that I know of, but with his record it is only a matter of time until somebody is killed. The tragedy is that until somebody does die nothing major will likely be done to end this group of terrorists.
More comparable would be holding somebody down while they were in the middle of a string of armed robberies doomed to end in the death of at least one innocent person.
More comparable would be holding somebody down while they were in the middle of a string of armed robberies doomed to end in the death of at least one innocent person.
What do you propose replaces Watson and his terrorists then? And I wonder, if you're terrorizing someone doing an illegal activity, is it still really the bad kind of terrorism?
Then you're saying Watson is a vigilante. As I recall you're not so fond of that kind of thing when Americans do it so why is it okay for Watson to do it?
Please refresh my memory where I said such and in what context.
BartSimpson @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:24 pm
Gunnair Gunnair:
Please refresh my memory where I said such and in what context.
In reference to the Minute Men taking it upon themselves to guard the US-Mexico border.
Gunnair @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:48 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Please refresh my memory where I said such and in what context.
In reference to the Minute Men taking it upon themselves to guard the US-Mexico border.
I'd have to see what I wrote and in the context to decide if I've changed my thoughts on some form of vigilantism.
Recall which thread it was?
Gunnair @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:55 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Please refresh my memory where I said such and in what context.
In reference to the Minute Men taking it upon themselves to guard the US-Mexico border.
In the current context, with Mexico's massive drug war potentially spilling over the border at any time, the concept of the Minute Men has more relevence in my opinion than it did a few years back when it seemed more of a knee jerk against illegal immigration. Now, I think there is a far more dangerous element involved than the self described economic refugees looking for a better life.
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:16 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal. The IWC has no formal authourity nor does the ICRW bind anyone to it that isn't a signatory. Any country that didn't join or opted out later on, is not bound in any way by IWC legislation.
The IWC is not a 'legal' body backed by treaty, you are correct. But Japan is still a signatory to it. Canada left the organization when they first banned whaling.
It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right.
The US is also a signatory to it but they seem perfectly fine with ignoring it when it suits them.
And since it isn't illegal anyway, that makes much of what Watsoff does illegal, on top of his contravention of maritime law.
And what exactly isn't right about it? Some have accused Japan of hiding behind scientific research as an excuse for commercial whaling. Well, so what if they are? First off, the ICW gave provisions for them to continue whale hunting.
Of the three nations that openly practice commercial whaling, NONE of them have come near the yearly quota. Japan, Norway and Iceland routinely catch around half of what they are allowed to catch.
Minke whales make up the vast bulk of the hunt. At an estimated LOW ball population of 500,000 globally, I have doubts that taking fewer than 2,000 a year is going to detrimentally affect their population growth rate.
jeff744 @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:37 pm
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal. The IWC has no formal authourity nor does the ICRW bind anyone to it that isn't a signatory. Any country that didn't join or opted out later on, is not bound in any way by IWC legislation.
The IWC is not a 'legal' body backed by treaty, you are correct. But Japan is still a signatory to it. Canada left the organization when they first banned whaling.
It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right.
The US is also a signatory to it but they seem perfectly fine with ignoring it when it suits them.
And since it isn't illegal anyway, that makes much of what Watsoff does illegal, on top of his contravention of maritime law.
And what exactly isn't right about it? Some have accused Japan of hiding behind scientific research as an excuse for commercial whaling. Well, so what if they are? First off, the ICW gave provisions for them to continue whale hunting.
Of the three nations that openly practice commercial whaling, NONE of them have come near the yearly quota. Japan, Norway and Iceland routinely catch around half of what they are allowed to catch.
Minke whales make up the vast bulk of the hunt. At an estimated LOW ball population of 500,000 globally, I have doubts that taking fewer than 2,000 a year is going to detrimentally affect their population growth rate.
Actually, they have found that every hunted population is growing and the hunts are actually a good way of measuring the current whale populations.
Gunnair @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:58 pm
jeff744 jeff744:
Actually, they have found that every hunted population is growing and the hunts are actually a good way of measuring the current whale populations.
Got a link that suggests hunting is a good or better way to determine population than say any other form of observation?
By the way, does believing that make you pro-death penalty?
jeff744 @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:12 pm
Gunnair Gunnair:
jeff744 jeff744:
Actually, they have found that every hunted population is growing and the hunts are actually a good way of measuring the current whale populations.
Got a link that suggests hunting is a good or better way to determine population than say any other form of observation?
By the way, does believing that make you pro-death penalty?
I used to have the link, it is now buried under 20 pages of greenpeace and other green group links.
How are pro-death and whaling even remotely related? What we do to our own species and what we do to other ones are completely different issues.
DrCaleb @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:13 pm
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
And finally as much as some people wish it was, commercial whaling is not illegal. The IWC has no formal authourity nor does the ICRW bind anyone to it that isn't a signatory. Any country that didn't join or opted out later on, is not bound in any way by IWC legislation.
The IWC is not a 'legal' body backed by treaty, you are correct. But Japan is still a signatory to it. Canada left the organization when they first banned whaling.
It may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right.
The US is also a signatory to it but they seem perfectly fine with ignoring it when it suits them.
And since it isn't illegal anyway, that makes much of what Watsoff does illegal, on top of his contravention of maritime law.
And what exactly isn't right about it? Some have accused Japan of hiding behind scientific research as an excuse for commercial whaling. Well, so what if they are? First off, the ICW gave provisions for them to continue whale hunting.
What theu US does or doesn't do is not my concern. What Watcon does on the high seas is equally not my concern.
We don't hunt Elephants, Rhinos, Tigers, Snow Leopards, Dolphins and many other animals because they are scarce, or there are other ways to make what we used to get from them.
That's why it isn't right. I don't mind using many animals that we have bred for meat, as meat. That are all ugly, and mostly dumb. There is nothing stopping me from going to my next door neighbours, killing and butchering their dog and frying it up. But it isn't right.
I do not eat Octopus, Cuttlefish, Dolphin, Whale, Dog etc, not because they are cute, but because they know what is going on and have feelings about my eating them.
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Of the three nations that openly practice commercial whaling, NONE of them have come near the yearly quota. Japan, Norway and Iceland routinely catch around half of what they are allowed to catch.
Minke whales make up the vast bulk of the hunt. At an estimated LOW ball population of 500,000 globally, I have doubts that taking fewer than 2,000 a year is going to detrimentally affect their population growth rate.
Minke whales make up the vast bulk of the hunt. At an estimated LOW ball population of 500,000 globally, I have doubts that taking fewer than 2,000 a year is going to detrimentally affect their population growth rate.
So, do you have any figures to back up those numbers? Oh, wait, that's what Japan is supposed to 'research' riiiight. We called for a moratorium on Caribou hunting in Labrador, because we know populations are declining. But we hav eno clue as to the health of whale populations, so we have no idea what we are doing to them. Google 'Orange Roughy' for a little hint as to what we can do when we think with out stomachs.
Besides, there are other ways for Japanese to get protein that doesn't involve animals with intellect and feelings.
DrCaleb @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:16 pm
jeff744 jeff744:
Actually, they have found that every hunted population is growing and the hunts are actually a good way of measuring the current whale populations.
How many offspring do they have? Where do they breed and birth? How long do they live? What is their likelihood of growing to adulthood? Using that information, what is the likely population that can be culled sustainably?
All but the last question cannot be answered by killing the animals.
jeff744 @ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:16 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
So, do you have any figures to back up those numbers? Oh, wait, that's what Japan is supposed to 'research' riiiight. We called for a moratorium on Caribou hunting in Labrador, because we know populations are declining. But we hav eno clue as to the health of whale populations, so we have no idea what we are doing to them. Google 'Orange Roughy' for a little hint as to what we can do when we think with out stomachs.
Besides, there are other ways for Japanese to get protein that doesn't involve animals with intellect and feelings.
Besides, there are other ways for Japanese to get protein that doesn't involve animals with intellect and feelings.
http://iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm
IWC themselves agree.