Fact check: Did a Liberal tax cut help reduce poverty rates'
Newsbot @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:34 am
Title: Fact check: Did a Liberal tax cut help reduce poverty rates' | CTV News
Category: Economics
Posted By: uwish
Date: 2020-03-05 08:33:11
Canadian
uwish @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:34 am
"What's more, "it is a nose-stretcher to say that it helped reduce poverty. Because these people are not in poverty, these are people in the top 30 (per cent) of the income distribution and the biggest benefit went to the people in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution."
Both Gordon and Macdonald point out that those whose annual incomes are close to the poverty line, which is around $20,000, saw no benefit at all from this measure."
BeaverFever @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:04 am
So just to clarify finally we have a conservative agreeing that tax cuts don’t improve living standards or reduce poverty. FINALLY! It only took 40years of explaining. Will conservatives ever give up on this idea?
Also from the article
$1:
He agrees that over a million people were lifted out of poverty between 2015 and 2018 using the "market basket measure," which calculates the minimum a person or family has to bring in to afford a modest or basic living standard. The Liberals adopted this measure as the country's official poverty line in 2018.
But Macdonald says the primary driver of the decrease in the poverty rate was the introduction of the Canada Child Benefit in 2016 as well as other changes to income-transfer programs, including the guaranteed income supplement and the Canada Workers Benefit.
"It is certainly true that public policy is responsible for a million fewer people living in poverty today versus 2015, but it's not due to tax cuts, it's due to changes in transfer programs," Macdonald said.
"The Liberals can certainly take credit for it: they made the changes and those have had a big impact on people's lives. It just wasn't tax cuts."
But Macdonald says the primary driver of the decrease in the poverty rate was the introduction of the Canada Child Benefit in 2016 as well as other changes to income-transfer programs, including the guaranteed income supplement and the Canada Workers Benefit.
"It is certainly true that public policy is responsible for a million fewer people living in poverty today versus 2015, but it's not due to tax cuts, it's due to changes in transfer programs," Macdonald said.
"The Liberals can certainly take credit for it: they made the changes and those have had a big impact on people's lives. It just wasn't tax cuts."
So in summary Trudeau DID lift 1 million Canadians out of poverty... by SPENDING
Once again proving liberal economics work and conservative economics fail.
uwish @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:03 am
sure lets say that, but then you have to completely ignore things like sustainability or deficits. But yeah, go ahead spend your way out of poverty. What a great legacy to leave future generations you know the one thing lefties always fail to remember.
BartSimpson @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:07 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
So in summary Trudeau DID lift 1 million Canadians out of poverty... by SPENDING
Once again proving liberal economics work and conservative economics fail.
Once again proving liberal economics work and conservative economics fail.
Go get a credit card and spend your way out of poverty and see how long that can last.
I know you intrinsically hate austerity spending but the fact remains that it's better to choose to spend less money and pay off your debts than to have no choice at all.
FieryVulpine @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:53 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Go get a credit card and spend your way out of poverty and see how long that can last.
Why am I hearing echoes of the eighties and early nineties when Canada was an honorary member of the third world?
N_Fiddledog @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:58 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
So just to clarify finally we have a conservative agreeing that tax cuts don’t improve living standards or reduce poverty. FINALLY! It only took 40years of explaining. Will conservatives ever give up on this idea?
I don't think we agree on what the word "clarify" means.
The article's position seemed to be that the Liberal cuts to "middle class" incomes cannot be directly identified as the main or only reason for the reduction in Canadian poverty rates.
She may have a point. I'd want to know what Teressa Wright's explanation would be for something similar happening in America after Trump's tax cuts though. 'Not the only reason' is not the same thing as not one of the reasons. And Teressa is talking about a Canadian-specific set of circumstances. I'm not sure I see how applying that to a general global rule as hopeful evidence of a generality "clarifies" anything.
Thanos @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:32 pm
I doubt that tax cuts reduce poverty. Except for the rankest liars among the fiscal conservatives I don't even know who made this claim anyway. If they did say that then shame on them for just lying even more than they usually do.
I do know one thing about tax cuts for businesses though. They help keep companies from going under altogether, as has been happening here in Calgary far too often due to the civic business taxes being too high. Don't raise those taxes or cut them and those businesses stay open and keep their employees working, and that is alone a form of poverty reduction just from not adding more people to the unemployed list.
N_Fiddledog @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:39 pm
Thanos Thanos:
I doubt that tax cuts reduce poverty.
Could I talk you into 'possible, mitigating factor'?
If not how are we explaining the fact that minorities experiencing trouble finding work set historical employment records after Trump's tax cuts? Also the use of food stamps or whatever that card they use down there is plummeted.
How are we explaining stuff like that? A leftover miracle from the Obama era? The natural, economic eb and flux of things that we don't have a name for, but for now let's just call it magic?
Deregulation and new hopeful outlook might also have something to do with it. That's all I can come up with.
Thanos @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:49 pm
Tax cuts generally stimulate businesses. There's no dispute there. If they got more people hired in the US then great. It means Trump did something right at least once, the same way that Trudeau did the absolutely right thing in legalizing marijuana. Doesn't make either one of them a worthy leader though, or that their overall slate of policies is some work of genius, not when almost every other thing they both do is a toss-up between a disgrace or an outright disaster. If there's living proof that a busted clock is correct twice a day but completely worthless the rest of the time it comes from the two oafs in charge of Canada and the US right now.
N_Fiddledog @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:33 pm
Well...
Here's some claims from 2019. Feel free to show me how Justin is doing against these:
$1:
Employment: PBS News Hour confirmed that this is the best labor market since 1969 with low unemployment, more jobs and rising wages.
GDP: Trump is the first president to have GDP consistently higher than 3%, President Barack Obama was only the president to fail to achieve one year of 3% GDP growth.
Wages: The Washington Post even surrenders to the fact that Trump is the first president to improve wages in a generation where income is at an all-time high.
Stock Market: CNN says the stock market has roared more than 40% since Trump’s election.
Gas and Fuel Prices: Gas prices are low in most U.S. states that don't over-tax fuel with local and state taxes. Many states have $2.15 per gallon gasoline right now. Gas prices may fall this summer according to the latest news.
Ethnic Employment Success: The employment success for all ethnicities is at record high. Obama had difficulty creating jobs and many people gave up looking for work.
Manufacturing Jobs: Manufacturing jobs are back in the U.S. for the first time in a generation. Trump created 284,000 manufacturing jobs in 2018. Forbes implied that millions of manufacturing jobs were lost during Obama’s first 2 years in office. Some 1 in 6 were lost between January 2008 and March 2010 and Obama never got those jobs back.
Taxes and Regulatory: Corporate taxes were cut from 35% to 21%. America moved from worst tax system up to one of the most competitive in the world under Trump’s first 2 years in office. Lower tax rates allow U.S. companies to spend more money, buy more assets, pay more employee benefits, buy stock back to put money on Main Street and into state coffers, and even help pay better dividends to seniors who live paycheck to paycheck.
Nasdaq: The Nasdaq stock market value finally exceeded the 1999 prices under Trump. This implies that companies were stagnant for 18 years until Trump took office.
Level the Playing Field: With a mixed bag of tax-code improvements, removal of red tape, new trade agreements, and competitive tariffs, the U.S. economy is more insulated from failure. Even the Federal Reserve is willing to lower rates if other countries harm the U.S. trading environment.
GDP: Trump is the first president to have GDP consistently higher than 3%, President Barack Obama was only the president to fail to achieve one year of 3% GDP growth.
Wages: The Washington Post even surrenders to the fact that Trump is the first president to improve wages in a generation where income is at an all-time high.
Stock Market: CNN says the stock market has roared more than 40% since Trump’s election.
Gas and Fuel Prices: Gas prices are low in most U.S. states that don't over-tax fuel with local and state taxes. Many states have $2.15 per gallon gasoline right now. Gas prices may fall this summer according to the latest news.
Ethnic Employment Success: The employment success for all ethnicities is at record high. Obama had difficulty creating jobs and many people gave up looking for work.
Manufacturing Jobs: Manufacturing jobs are back in the U.S. for the first time in a generation. Trump created 284,000 manufacturing jobs in 2018. Forbes implied that millions of manufacturing jobs were lost during Obama’s first 2 years in office. Some 1 in 6 were lost between January 2008 and March 2010 and Obama never got those jobs back.
Taxes and Regulatory: Corporate taxes were cut from 35% to 21%. America moved from worst tax system up to one of the most competitive in the world under Trump’s first 2 years in office. Lower tax rates allow U.S. companies to spend more money, buy more assets, pay more employee benefits, buy stock back to put money on Main Street and into state coffers, and even help pay better dividends to seniors who live paycheck to paycheck.
Nasdaq: The Nasdaq stock market value finally exceeded the 1999 prices under Trump. This implies that companies were stagnant for 18 years until Trump took office.
Level the Playing Field: With a mixed bag of tax-code improvements, removal of red tape, new trade agreements, and competitive tariffs, the U.S. economy is more insulated from failure. Even the Federal Reserve is willing to lower rates if other countries harm the U.S. trading environment.
https://www.newsmax.com/finance/georgem ... id/919096/
I'm assuming you won't like the source there, so try these:
$1:
The typical American worker’s pay is finally growing more than 3 percent a year, a level not seen since before the Great Recession. Similarly, consumer and business confidence surged after Trump’s election and has remained high, and manufacturing output (and jobs) also saw a noticeable jump in 2018 after Trump’s tax cut, although manufacturing is now struggling. There’s also been a drop in the number of Americans on food stamps.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... my-charts/
The one progressive's always want to jump on though is the problem with the debt. Trump needs to work on that. He's making promises for his next term but we shall see. You may be able to find Trump Trudeau equivalency in the dealings with that one.
N_Fiddledog @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:10 pm
Oh wait T...I just remembered something. One time Beave found some Progressive think tank website where they maneuvered stats to say 'don't believe your lying eyes. The Obama economy was booming and the Trump economy is in the tank.'
I looked it up because I expect to see it again soon anyway.
https://tcf.org/content/commentary/trum ... ent-story/
You may have guessed that I don't have much respect for it but there was one point that if true connects well with what this thread is talking about and would say tax cuts don't seem to matter in relation to Poverty ratings.
Check out # 7. I think you'll like it.
CDN_PATRIOT @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:16 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
So in summary Trudeau DID lift 1 million Canadians out of poverty... by SPENDING
He sacrificed the future to get a cheap pop in the present. Such awesome *leadership*
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Once again proving liberal economics work.
Did you and Trudeau flunk out of the same math class?
-J.
BartSimpson @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:37 pm
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
Did you and Trudeau flunk out of the same math class?
Liberal math is quite complicated and I see it in practice at work in every single fiscal year.
How?
I work at a self-funded government agency. Even though it's illegal the state diverts some $2bn per year from our "trust funds" to the general fund.
Here's where the fun starts.
The state takes our $2bn every July 1st and gives us an IOU for $2bn.
So $2bn cash + and $2bn IOU for $2bn = $4bn cash on the state's balance sheet. Both the debt and the asset are considered as assets.
But it gets better!
When they pay us back they balance forward the IOU and LOAN us our original $2bn and now the state counts this all as $6bn!!! I shit you not!!!
And they count all of that as an asset which they use to go to Wall Street and issue bonds against!!!
And then they have $12bn on the books against an actual cash on hand of $2bn.
Which is why I don't count on my state pension to be worth one fucking thing by the time I need it.
I figure by FY2030 if not sooner this state is going to be bankrupt.
BeaverFever @ Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:19 pm
uwish uwish:
sure lets say that, but then you have to completely ignore things like sustainability or deficits. But yeah, go ahead spend your way out of poverty. What a great legacy to leave future generations you know the one thing lefties always fail to remember.
No you don’t have to worry about sustainability or deficits. Literally the entire first world western civilization and middle class society that you know and love was built with deficit spending and nobody ever consistently ran a balanced budget.
As for future generations, Ihaven’t yet met a person who would rather we still live in third world squalor with everything broken and neglected beyond repair but no debt instead of our first world society with some debt. The economy always grows over the long term and the population always grows over the long term therefore the tax revenue to pay for deficit always grows and deficits are therefore always affordable except in extremes.
I also love how concern for what we leave future generations doesn’t ever seem to extend to polluted rivers and clearcut forests and leaving them a toxic hellacaped environment.
The righties hysteria over balanced budgets and their failed predictions over the past 40 years that the sky would fall unless all deficits are immediately eliminated makes “climate alarmism” seem mild by comparison