Canada Kicks Ass
Gaza & Hamas (Merged)

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andyt @ Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:55 pm

I will say tho, that I think the Arabs caused this, caused Israel to turn away from the idealistic state it started out as. You keep getting attacked, it's gonna drive you crazy, and it sure seems to be the case here. Basically a case of projective identification.

   



desertdude @ Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:40 pm

andyt andyt:
I will say tho, that I think the Arabs caused this, caused Israel to turn away from the idealistic state it started out as. You keep getting attacked, it's gonna drive you crazy, and it sure seems to be the case here. Basically a case of projective identification.


Well if we want to go back to the beginning then it wasn't started off as an idealistic state, it started off with violence even before it formation with events like the King David Hotel Bombing by Jewish terrorist groups whose leaders later became its leaders. It was formed on forced immigration of Jews from Europe which no one from the west wanted. And then the unfair partition by the UN, thats when it really hit the fan.

From Ben Gurion to Yahoo today they never really wanted peace.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle,

   



Public_Domain @ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:01 pm

:|

   



Zipperfish @ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:34 pm

BartSimpson BartSimpson:
desertdude desertdude:
...what other means of defense do they have against Israeli jets and fire power(?)


Non-violence.

If the Palestinians simply stop waging war then Israel won't retaliate. But if they insist on firing rockets at Israeli homes, families, and children then they should not whine about it when Israel fires things at their homes, families, and children.

It's just that simple.


I agree with this. Regardless of who is wrong and who is right, the Palestinaians arefaced with overwhelming military superiority. There is no military option for the Palestinians.

   



andyt @ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Yes. What they need is the courage to do a Gandhi - nonviolent civil disobedience. Be willing to be arrested, beaten, probably some killed as they block settlement access. Doubt they'll do it, just a whole different culture than India during Gandhi's time. Doubt Indians would be up for it now either. In fact MLK started losing followers to the Panthers who wanted more radical action. Too bad, because what he was doing was working, once the Panthers started up, they lost a lot of white folks, including myself. But scenes of IFD beating and killing Palestinians who are peacefully blocking roads etc and nobody firing rockets or blowing themselves up would be incredibly powerful.

   



Unsound @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:07 am

andyt andyt:
Yes. What they need is the courage to do a Gandhi - nonviolent civil disobedience. Be willing to be arrested, beaten, probably some killed as they block settlement access. Doubt they'll do it, just a whole different culture than India during Gandhi's time. Doubt Indians would be up for it now either. In fact MLK started losing followers to the Panthers who wanted more radical action. Too bad, because what he was doing was working, once the Panthers started up, they lost a lot of white folks, including myself. But scenes of IFD beating and killing Palestinians who are peacefully blocking roads etc and nobody firing rockets or blowing themselves up would be incredibly powerful.


This.

Regardless of who's right or wrong the world is so sick of terrorism and violence at this point that the Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys as long as they continue with the same tactics. Even the Irish figured out that the violence had to stop to make progress.

   



desertdude @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:34 am

Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.

Another fiddly

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:18 am

desertdude desertdude:
Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.




And, strangely enough, the Israel supporteres claim the exact opposite.

   



desertdude @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:33 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
desertdude desertdude:
Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.




And, strangely enough, the Israel supporteres claim the exact opposite.


Well you just have look at the major media outlets and what they are saying you'll find how true that is.

   



PublicAnimalNo9 @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:43 am

desertdude desertdude:
Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.

Right, because actions mean nothing. So I guess the previously mentioned IRA were also always seen as the bad guys in the West because of the heavy anti-Catholic and strongly pro-Protestant media painting them as bad guys? Hell, the same "excuses" could be made for the FLQ. They were just misunderstood by a highly anti-French, pro-English media.
Oh and by the way DD, in Canada the media is definitely NOT what one would call "pro-Israel".

   



desertdude @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:06 am

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
desertdude desertdude:
Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.

Right, because actions mean nothing. So I guess the previously mentioned IRA were also always seen as the bad guys in the West because of the heavy anti-Catholic and strongly pro-Protestant media painting them as bad guys? Hell, the same "excuses" could be made for the FLQ. They were just misunderstood by a highly anti-French, pro-English media.
Oh and by the way DD, in Canada the media is definitely NOT what one would call "pro-Israel".



Diane sawyer from ABC showing the destruction caused by Israeli airstrikes as that of damage from the Hamas rockets

   



BartSimpson @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:25 am

desertdude desertdude:
Palestinians will always be seen as the bad guys in the west as the heavy anti muslim and strongly pro Israel media paints them out to be.


Am I mistaken or are you endorsing continued attacks against Israel by the Palestinians? If so then it should be no wonder to you when the Israelis strike back at their tormentors.

The Jews are not dhimmis and they are not ever going to submit to moslem rule. The choice is to make peace with them, like Egypt and Jordan did, or to have your houses bombed, like Hamas does.

If the Palestinians choose to commit suicide-by-Jew then that's their misfortune.

Let the Palestinians first choose peace and then Israel will have to come to the table in good faith to discuss the place of the Palestinians in the company of civilized peoples.

   



Thanos @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:29 am

BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Let the Palestinians first choose peace and then Israel will have to come to the table in good faith to discuss the place of the Palestinians in the company of civiized peoples.


I highly doubt the political and social motivations of Likud are as honourable and selfless as you want to believe. The Palestinians not giving them an excuse to drop bombs by murdering teenagers or sending suicide bombers onto transit buses would seem like the pragmatic thing to do, of course.

   



andyt @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:32 am

The Palestinians just meekly accepting whatever the Israelis do would just result in them being pushed onto more and more marginal land until they were standing in the Jordan. The Settler movement is way too strong in Israel. But as i say, seems to me, the Palestinians using non-violent civil disobedience would probably be the most effective. That, tho, takes courage and discipline and patience.

   



Thanos @ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:42 am

andyt andyt:
The Palestinians just meekly accepting whatever the Israelis do would just result in them being pushed onto more and more marginal land until they were standing in the Jordan. The Settler movement is way too strong in Israel. But as i say, seems to me, the Palestinians using non-violent civil disobedience would probably be the most effective. That, tho, takes courage and discipline and patience.


Logically, thanks to the openly arrogant viciousness of the settlers and the erosion of Israeli secular democracy at the hands of Likud and it's alliance with the fundamentalist Orthodox religious parties, it's really impossible for any thinking person to fall for any of this "Jews = white hats, Muslims = black hats" bullshit. Anyone who still believes in any of that "tiny helpless Israel" garbage really needs to grow the hell up.

Emotionally though? I find it difficult, if not outright impossible, to feel much sympathy for the Palestinians, just as I felt the same way about the Irish Catholics in Ulster. Blow up enough pubs, dinner parties, and airliners, toss enough old men in wheelchairs over the railing on cruise ships, gun down enough people in airport terminals, or shoot enough athletes at international events, and my sympathy for the cause of the perpetrators goes from hovering around zero into negative figures PDQ.

   



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