Let war resisters stay in Canada, U.S. protesters say
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sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:10 pm
SigPig SigPig:
sandorski sandorski:
SprCForr SprCForr:
sandorski sandorski:
"Combat" is really not the issue here, for all but 1 or 2 anyway(which IIRC didn't even come here but faced the consequences in the US). The Iraq War is a unique situation that most Americans would not have foreseen, because not only was it a full blown War, but it's Justification has never been grounded on anything concrete.
It still doesn't change the fact that there was still that potential when a person joins a military organization. There simply cannot be a guarentee that it won't happen. If a person doesn't want to expose themselves to that hazard, don't join. They joined by their own free will and agreed to the terms of the contract. If a troop feels that they cannot commit themselves (as they agreed they would), then there are mechanisms in place for him to make his point of view known. It isn't and never has been a requirement for a government to justify it's actions to the individual soldier's personal satisfaction. A soldier running away to Canada from an obligation they freely entered into isn't some noble act of protest. It's merely a cowardly attempt to escape punishment. Making the stand and facing the music is the noble protest.
Send everyone of them back.
Of course they might get shipped out somewhere foreign. In fact, many actually signed up after 9/11 fully expecting to be shipped out to far away lands to Fight Terrorists. What they object to is to being shipped off to Iraq where not only were there no Terrorists, but that all the reasons the War was started has been based on BS.
sure, it did blow for the average soldier when the US went into Iraq. Yes the premise was wrong and there were no terrorists or WMDs, just oil. However, It does not give you the right to just leave and back out of the contract that you signed. There are legitimate means to make your feelings known. Running to Canada is not one of them.
Sure it does. Not only the Right, but the Obligation to do so. Tyranny has no Right.
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:11 pm
martin14 martin14:
$1:
What they object to is to being shipped off to Iraq where not only were there no Terrorists, but that all the reasons the War was started has been based on BS.
well its BS according to you, and soldiers arent given the luxury
of picking and choosing where they go...
do you not understand that yet ???
They do have that choice and these few have made that choice.
SprCForr @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:12 pm
It's the "true coward" that fufills the obligation they agreed to and by serving as directed, in an honorable manner and completing their assigned tasks to the best of their ability?
So where do those who run to Canada fit in?
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:13 pm
SprCForr SprCForr:
Again, there is not and has never been any obligation for a government to justify it's actions to the personal satisfaction of the individual troop.
What? Is this the Soviet Union? Yes, the Government most certainly has an Obligation to Justify its' actions.
martin14 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:14 pm
$1:
Other than the "wooden guns", what would be wrong with that?
you asshat.. if your name is really what your profile says it is, you are a Hungarian and you should know better than to even suggest such b$%&&^%t.
If it wasnt for Canadian and American soldiers being sent overseas to fight, you would still be in your village, learning Russian....
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:15 pm
SprCForr SprCForr:
It's the "true coward" that fufills the obligation they agreed to and by serving as directed, in an honorable manner and completing their assigned tasks to the best of their ability?
So where do those who run to Canada fit in?
So where do those who run to Canada fit in?
How many were convicted of War Crimes for doing what you consider the proper thing to do?
SigPig @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:15 pm
sandorski sandorski:
martin14 martin14:
$1:
What they object to is to being shipped off to Iraq where not only were there no Terrorists, but that all the reasons the War was started has been based on BS.
well its BS according to you, and soldiers arent given the luxury
of picking and choosing where they go...
do you not understand that yet ???
They do have that choice and these few have made that choice.
the coices they have lie in their chain of command. This just leaving is bullshit and cowardly. until you realize that there are other legit means available to them and that this is ILLEGAL there really is no point in continuing. These are not people who were dragged away from their civilian lives and forced to go to war. When you volunteer you always know that you could be sent to war and you may not like it but thats not your choice once you join. You accept it when you put your name on that dotted line. End of story. Its called a sense of professionalism and duty and commitment.
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:17 pm
martin14 martin14:
$1:
Other than the "wooden guns", what would be wrong with that?
you asshat.. if your name is really what your profile says it is, you are a Hungarian and you should know better than to even suggest such b$%&&^%t.
If it wasnt for Canadian and American soldiers being sent overseas to fight, you would still be in your village, learning Russian....
My Dad was Hungarian and he escaped without any help from the West whatsoever. In fact, I'd be curious as to what Fighting by the West ended the Soviet Union?
Before calling someone an "Asshat", you might want to check your Facts first.
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:19 pm
SigPig SigPig:
sandorski sandorski:
martin14 martin14:
$1:
What they object to is to being shipped off to Iraq where not only were there no Terrorists, but that all the reasons the War was started has been based on BS.
well its BS according to you, and soldiers arent given the luxury
of picking and choosing where they go...
do you not understand that yet ???
They do have that choice and these few have made that choice.
the coices they have lie in their chain of command. This just leaving is bullshit and cowardly. until you realize that there are other legit means available to them and that this is ILLEGAL there really is no point in continuing. These are not people who were dragged away from their civilian lives and forced to go to war. When you volunteer you always know that you could be sent to war and you may not like it but thats not your choice once you join. You accept it when you put your name on that dotted line. End of story. Its called a sense of professionalism and duty and commitment.
We're obviously not going to agree on that point. One's Obligation to fulfill a Contract has limits though.
Regina @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:20 pm
sandorski sandorski:
Regina Regina:
Answer my question first.
Your question is rather stupid, but anyway.
Other than the "wooden guns", what would be wrong with that? Seriously. Of course(as my previous post states), the reality is that they would likely be shipped out once joining, but Iraq is a unique situation that very few imagined would happen. There comes a time when following orders is just not enough and Iraq just happens to be one of those times when People do a doubletake and ask WTF is going here. Many, the true Cowards, will just bite the bullet and do what they know is wrong. A few standup and refuse to be a part of it.
You live in Canada and that's what my reference was made to. Grabbing at examples from other countries doesn't bolster your position one little bit. We are not fighting in Iraq and you, as a potential soldier of this country should not try to hang your peaceful hat on that one. Explaining you don't have the courage to join a military organization because you don't approve some other country's position is lame. Canada has always come to the aid of other countries in time of need far and away from home. If you don't have the fortitude to continue with that tradition just say so. You can stay home within our borders...just like me and millions of others.
martin14 @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:21 pm
$1:
My Dad was Hungarian and he escaped without any help from the West whatsoever
You forget that the West took him.. they could have sent him back....
you seriously need to go back and study some history, boy..
about a couple of world wars, and a cold war that brought the Soviets down.
SprCForr @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:36 pm
sandorski sandorski:
SprCForr SprCForr:
It's the "true coward" that fufills the obligation they agreed to and by serving as directed, in an honorable manner and completing their assigned tasks to the best of their ability?
So where do those who run to Canada fit in?
So where do those who run to Canada fit in?
How many were convicted of War Crimes for doing what you consider the proper thing to do?
If there wasn't a violation of the Geneva Convention/Crimes against humanity thing, AFAIK none.
Where does the Iraqi war fail the test WRT conduct according to the UCMJ?
So again, where does those who run to Canada fit in?
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:36 pm
Regina Regina:
sandorski sandorski:
Regina Regina:
Answer my question first.
Your question is rather stupid, but anyway.
Other than the "wooden guns", what would be wrong with that? Seriously. Of course(as my previous post states), the reality is that they would likely be shipped out once joining, but Iraq is a unique situation that very few imagined would happen. There comes a time when following orders is just not enough and Iraq just happens to be one of those times when People do a doubletake and ask WTF is going here. Many, the true Cowards, will just bite the bullet and do what they know is wrong. A few standup and refuse to be a part of it.
You live in Canada and that's what my reference was made to. Grabbing at examples from other countries doesn't bolster your position one little bit. We are not fighting in Iraq and you, as a potential soldier of this country should not try to hang your peaceful hat on that one. Explaining you don't have the courage to join a military organization because you don't approve some other country's position is lame. Canada has always come to the aid of other countries in time of need far and away from home. If you don't have the fortitude to continue with that tradition just say so. You can stay home within our borders...just like me and millions of others.
I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here.
sandorski @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:37 pm
martin14 martin14:
$1:
My Dad was Hungarian and he escaped without any help from the West whatsoever
You forget that the West took him.. they could have sent him back....
you seriously need to go back and study some history, boy..
about a couple of world wars, and a cold war that brought the Soviets down.
History is not my problem. Take a chill pill and come back when you got something to add.
SprCForr @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:40 pm
sandorski sandorski:
We're obviously not going to agree on that point. One's Obligation to fulfill a Contract has limits though.
Those limits are clearly spelled out. A soldier is obligated to give up their life if ordered to do so.
This subject is becoming a dogpile which isn't fair. I'll stop here for a bit. We can pick up the conversation later.
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