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<strong>Written By:</strong> 4Canada
<strong>Date:</strong> 2006-04-07 09:12:00
<a href="/article/211217574-how-exactly-are-troops-defending-our-quotnational-interestsquot-in-afghani">Article Link</a>

Yet there is no appetite for a debate in Ottawa.

The Liberals have a vested interest in defending the mission, having quietly committed to a different role in Kandahar than in Kabul. The Conservatives, ideologically predisposed to military operations, have been gung-ho ever since the Prime Minister went to Afghanistan and suggested it was our patriotic duty to shut up.

One person who won't is former foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy. Now president of the University of Winnipeg, he is distant enough from fellow Liberals to critique them. So I phoned him. He got straight to the point.

<a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1144273816148&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621513">http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1144273816148&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621513</a>







[Proofreader's note: this article was edited for spelling and typos on April 9, 2006]

   

being in Afghanistan has nothing to do with our national interest, making people hate us isn't in anyones interest. having our boys over there sucking up that thousand tons of D.U. the US used in Afghanistan, certainly isn't in their interest. There is only one reason to invade a country, thats to kill the people that live there, and thats what we are doing.

   

Poor Haroon should talk to someone that has seen what is happening on the ground instead of going to Winnepeg to find his sources. Lloyd Axworthy has been sheltered at his University posting and out of the foreign affairs business for too long it appears. <br />
<br />
"why our troops are copying the U.S. military tactics" - well they are not. Instead of going on search and destroy missions (which they are also doing), they are meeting village elders in shura's (which is why we had a soldier attacked with an axe), they are performing medical services (<a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060325.wxblatch0325/BNStory/National/home">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060325.wxblatch0325/BNStory/National/home</a>), they have purposely slowed their vehicles down when in towns despite the IED and suicide bomber risk, and they are conducting foot patrols (<a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060327.wxblatchford27/BNStory/Afghanistan/home">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060327.wxblatchford27/BNStory/Afghanistan/home</a>).<br />
<br />
"a different role in Kandahar than in Kabul" - actually no... it's the same role, just in a more volatile location. Kabul was pacified under Canadian, German and other allied watches. Kandahar was initially ignored because of a lack of foreign troops and trained Afghan troops.<br />
<br />
"We are on a mission that is totally contradictory: hunting down the Taliban and rebuilding/helping the people." Perhaps Llyod can explain how you rebuild if you don't fight the people who, by his own admission, are blowing up schools. What a jackass. <br />
<br />
"When we were in Kabul as part of NATO, we were providing protection for the government and the local population. But as soon as we took on the mission in Kandahar, the mandate changed. Rather than designing our own rules, we just took over from the Americans." - this is patently false. We moved the mission, and due to the volatility, the dangers expanded. The mission is still the same - train the Afghan military, set up security so that the Afghans and NGO's can set up infrastructure and set up infrastructure ourselves where and when we can. Part of the problem is that without security, there are no NGO's willing to go to these areas. Maybe we can get the Christian Peacekeepers there. At least they have the will to go where it is dangerous. <br />
<br />
"Our troops should have become a constabulary. You set up a zone of security, so people can be made to feel safe again. You provide patrols at schools, mosques, government offices and construction sites. That's what you do. That's what we did in Kabul." - we did that but we also are going out and fighting the Taliban. It was on those search and destroy missions in and around Kabul that we caught Taliban/Al Queda and handed them over to both the US and Afghans which led to an uproar. If we were not conducting those missions we wouldn't have caught anyone!<br />
<br />
"In the last few weeks, 200 schools have been destroyed or closed, teachers are being killed and students intimidated." - don't know where he got those stats, but even I'll say that too many attacks and too much intimidation has been happening around Kandahar. WHICH IS WHY WE WERE SENT THERE. How do you intend to stop those attacks if you don't fight the Taliban?<br />
<br />
If we didn't fight the Taliban, how many schools would be closing? All of them. How many girls would be in school? None. How much infrastructure would be set up? None. The only thing the Taliban did effectively was scare people into obedience, set up massadras and corner the opium market. <br />
<br />
Perhaps Haroon and Lloyd should talk to the Afghans themselves. Who do the Afghans blame for their current instability? Pakistan. What do they want? Security and freedom from bandits, criminals and suicide bombers (which they blame on both the Taliban and the current Afghan government). Do they want foreign troops on their soil? No, but they understand why they are there. <br />
<br />
I for one can't wait for the debate next week. Hopefully someone in the NDP or the Bloc will come out with these same attacks. And the Cons and maybe even the Liberals can shoot them down with real facts and not conjecture from some has been.

   

“How did the Liberals get us into this mess?
"Maybe, they took on this new role without realizing what they were getting into. And now, instead of stepping back and saying, `Hey folks, something bad is happening there,' neither the Liberals nor the government are telling Canadians what we are up to in Afghanistan. Our foreign policy has gone into a cloak of secrecy," said Axworthy.

Worse, he said, "decisions are being made in the defence department and not in foreign affairs. There's the drumbeat of the military, with Gen. Rick Hillier as the George Patton of his time, and there's the drumbeat of the school of diplomacy that says, `might makes right.' And Harper is saying, `We are doing things Canadians are proud of.' But taking pride in killing people is not a Canadian virtue."



At what point does the principle of “carpe diem” become a military coup? Would Canadians recognize a military coup if it came up and bit them?

Canada’s long-standing “protection racket” defence agreement with our tough, southern big brother is finally yielding bitter fruit. Our blood vows, so hastily and thoughtlessly made, must now be redeemed. The political authors of these policies have long since slipped into the hills, like the Taliban in the night. Canadians will pay the full price of our deals with the devil, and no one responsible will ever be held to account

I watched Gen. Hillier’s stunning press conference about “killing…scumbags”, where Canada’s abrupt change to a more “robust” foreign policy was unceremoniously announced; and I couldn’t help but wonder why not a single government Minister challenged Hillier. As I understand it, it is a serious breach of Ministerial protocol for a general to pre-empt the government, and therefore the Parliament of Canada.

At a time when the government was in a serious political quagmire of its own over the now-forgotten submarine fire fiasco, a Canadian army general, fresh from years of experience as commander of the US Army’s huge 3rd Armoured Division in Ft. Hood Texas, seizes the day, leaving Bill Graham stuttering in surprise. At least that is the way it appeared to me. Had any government official announced this change in policy earlier? Had it been debated or discussed in any public or political quarter?

Where were the hundreds of well-paid elected representatives of every political stripe when this all happened? You know, the ones now asking politely for a “take note debate” on our “future” involvement in Afghanistan, as well as the hundreds who would now deny our Parliament any right to make that decision.

Lloyd Axeworthy’s comments are worth reading, and I am glad he has chosen an independent, rather than partisan path to frame and share his analysis. His is a voice worth listening to, but Canadians need to give their heads a shake before they will be able to hear what he is saying.

   

Most MPs have never lefted Canada. So how would they know what we're doing. I'm trying to post some pictures of what we do and what the Taliban did before we showed up.
We were in Cyprus for 30 yrs and lost about 20 soldiers. In Bosnia 13, in Somalia 1, Kosovo 2, and now Afganistan 12. But out of the 12 but only one died in combat. Wake up people.
We have soldiers die on exercise, walking to work, or just die. How many construction workers died? How many Cops died? Do we stop them from doing their jobs? NO.
So get a real life. We are not killing people that that are there to kiss their fello man.
I hat eto say it, but Canadians need a 911 and a real kick to understand. And if we do we can send all of the I didn't want you there folks, to clean it up.

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27 in the military, 9 tours.

   

"Most MPs have never lefted Canada. So how would they know what we're doing."
!ROTFLMAO!
This one damned near trumps my deliberate "Y shud we.."

You claim a critical thinking course was part of your training??
By the way armyguy, you have become my muse, and 'Amuser'
One would naturally assume the Members of Parliment that have nor "lefted" Canada will have access to feild reports and in that way gain knowledge of your actions, would they not?

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Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing, the rest is mere sheep-herding.
Ezra Pound
The only good is knowledge...

   

I hat eto say it, but Canadians need a 911 and a real kick to understand<<

Perhaps we understand that one may have bought the other. The USA have been invading and disrupting the lives of millions for their own gain. 911 may have been a shock but not a surprise. You can only create so many enemies before one is eventualy going to strike back. Why on earth would Canada want to be in that boat?

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Expect little from life and get more from it.

   

Not all MPs are privey to National Security. I'm Level 3 Top Secret. But cannot just read any Top Secret paper.
It pisses me off, no one cared about where we went during Cyprus, Cambodia, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sinai. Why? Iam asking the question why? We were under US command in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Cambodia, Sinai, etc.
Come you people know everthing, come on?

---
27 in the military, 9 tours.

   

Why don't the peace folks, just go there? Why won't they? Their scared, to see they are wrong. Fo anyone can read a paper, or watch TV and think they know it all.
Why not go there if you don't beleive me. Going on second tour there and has a daughter there now.

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27 in the military, 9 tours.

   

Talking about being scared.........

In the old days generals, dressed in fancy, braided uniforms and hats, used to draw their swords and led their troops into battle.

Today's generals are dressed in new, freshly laundered and ironed camouflage costumes, to show that they're "fighting men", and shout at their troops with loudspeakers from airconditioned aircraft: " Forward haaarch! Don't worry men as long as you can see me, because I'll be the first one to run away when a shot is fired!" "After all, I'm too valuable!"

Like heroic general Hillier, who was whisked away in a US helicopter when somebody let off a shot in the distance. Or was it one one the troops accidentally letting off a fart?

The problem with generals, and generally with professional soldiers, is that they would be officers and soldiers in any army in any country. Patriotism has nothnig to do with it, and the accident of birth makes no difference, as long as they can have uniforms and make big bangs.

My problem is that I have seen too much and studied military history for too long.

Ed Deak.

   

everytime I read one of your posts i recall the cartoon "I think I won" feature at the adress below.<br />
and those men who where in the line of of service... <br />
They are not "lost", armyguy <br />
they sacrificed their lives for the boss-mans bullshit.<br />
ask Ed <br />
<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.gahanwilson.com/">http://www.gahanwilson.com/</a><p>---<br>Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing, the rest is mere sheep-herding. <br />
Ezra Pound<br />
The only good is knowledge...

   

hat eto say it, but Canadians need a 911 and a real kick to understand<<

This comment chills me to the bone. To wish our own government(not much of a stretch) to blow up our own buildings to give someones daughter a job to kill someone in another country who did nothing to us. I believe this is what you're saying Army Guy.
The fact still remains that we aren't really changing anything as per Axeworthys comments. And as well we shouldn't. We should leave and beg forgiveness. The people we kill are DEAD and there is no glory there. Why didn't we negotiate with the Taliban in the first place. They are very similar to the Saudis and have the ability to reason. However it seems that Hillier hates "Scumbags" and needs the conflict I suppose to further his career so by all means send him in. Maybe we can give him five stars(maple leafs)on his collar when hes murdered enough scumbags. And the problem is I can't even wash my hands of it as a Canadian. I have to bear the shame with the likes of you.

   

Why don't the peace folks, just go there? Why won't they? Their scared, to see they are wrong. Fo anyone can read a paper, or watch TV and think they know it all.<

I've been in more hell holes then you and learned "being there" was not the solution proposed. If anyone that should have learned from that, is the Americans. Scared of being wrong? Maybe it's those who commited a wrong that are afraid of admitting their guilt. Big money is made at war and the first step is to convience those spending the money, is that the money is well spent. The next step is to convince someone to commit the offence and feel good about it. More and more solders are coming back and not feeling so good about it. Most are told to keep their mouth shut about it.


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Expect little from life and get more from it.

   

It sounds like Afghanistan is really destablilizing. I hope we send our troops home after the next one or two 6 month rotations.

Haroon Siddiqui/Lloyd Axworthy is wrong about one thing--killing people DID used to be a Canadian value and virtue--in World War II. The Liberals turned "Canadian value" into cautious pacificist and pussy willow....with some tough peace enforcing here and there.


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People who openly hate America, while making money from America, burning U.S. flags, waving Mexican and Jamaican flags, while demanding the right to be American

   

Blowup their own buildings? You and others must believe in lil green men? Put on your tin hat?
WE at work get a big laugh about this site.
Hillier run? And most Gerenals didn't lead from the front in War? Currer was in not always at the front, Symonds was not always at the front.

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27 in the military, 9 tours.

   

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