The NDP takes the high road...again

Umm, didn't Chretien ban union donations as well a business donations? I am aware the CAW is weak.

Broadbent was clearly against the original FTA. In my mind, he did a much better job on opposing the agreement than Turner.

Union donations are not the issue. When the NDP votes on policy the vote is weighted so the votes of the union delegates carry more weight. The argument for this is that the union delegates represent so many more people than do individual party memberships.

Sigh,

>> I also wonder if the NDP is completly opposed to NAFTA but they are our only hope.<<,
Nafta has brought you trade surpluses of 55 billion US in 03, 65 billion us in 04 and projected to be about 80 billion in 05. Almost a trillon Canadian dollars. If the NDP are completely opposed to it they are complete idiots.

>>they are the only ones who were questioning the stupidity of deep intergration<<

They are the only ones talking about "deep integration" at all, why? Because it doesn't exist as a real plan anywhere. It is a strawman, being used to spook you into voting for them with nonsense of the big bad Americans coming on up and assimilating you into the evil collective. THERE IS NO SUCH PLAN... YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED.

>>I will vote NDP and let's hope more this upcoming election do so too.<<

Gee, with clearly reasoned testimony like that maybe you wont be totally throwing your vote away on a fringe party that has no coherent agenda of its own. Naaah

Would you like me to vote for Stephen Harper? These people could care less about Canada. The bottom line with the conservatives and liberals is money. At least the NDP actually cares about people. It's been awhile since we've had a government in office that puts the people first! NAFTA isn't even about free trade. Most of it is about taking over Canada and it's working. The only party that has a chance of stopping it is the NDP. That is why they will be getting my vote!!!!

Making a North American, rather than Canadian market for oil, yes.

Many blame Broadbent for the FTA passing. IIRC Turner became a strong defender of our sovereignty and Broadbent eventually turned on Turner as much as Mulroney with his "Bobsey twins of Bay Street".

You know, I can cite the numbers and facts until I am blue in the face. You are obviously going to do whatever you think (have been told) is going to be the biggest swipe at the USA, even if it is patently self defeating. I hear that you want more “Canadian owned business,” yet you endorse the very idiots who are doing there best to drive them out. You want to be taken seriously, but you endorse these dithering fat heads will hasten the emasculation of your country and do nothing but pay lip service to problems by writing flowery mission statements that they have no intention of acting upon. You want more freedom but you are supporting those who wish to put themselves in control over you with their paternalistic, nanny-state, we know what’s best for you mentality.

Look, if I told you it would really enrage the bastards down south and it would really prove that you are a sovereign nation that takes direction from no one on anything ever if you went and drank the anti-freeze out of your radiator would you? Because that is just about the quality of the arguments that you are rallying behind. Vote for us or the spooky “deep integration” will turn you into a gun toting, gay bashing, Kyoto not signing, “neo con” robot. Its just demagoguery, designed to take advantage of your prejudices and nationalist feelings by creating an enemy in order to give someone else power.

This is a well trod path, and it is fundamentally un democratic.

"We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter."
-Dennis Diderot

Anon who so eloquently says, 'Sigh,

>> I also wonder if the NDP is completly opposed to NAFTA but they are our only hope.<<,
Nafta has brought you trade surpluses of 55 billion US in 03, 65 billion us in 04 and projected to be about 80 billion in 05. Almost a trillon Canadian dollars. If the NDP are completely opposed to it they are complete idiots.'

I wonder first why you care so much about Canadians,when you clearly think we are idiots. Several of your posts have said as much, so why do you care which way we vote. You seem desperate to prove to us that voting for a government that we want will somehow ruin our economy. But tell me how exactly NAFTA has been the positive for Canadian trade. First we have Ethyl corp., second we have softwood lumber, then the border closed to our beef, while we still are forced to import U.S. beef, because the trade deal says we must, even though our beef has been proved safe for many months? Oil and Gas? No, certainly not because of NAFTA, oil and gas is flowing for one reason, you want it and we have it. Also we must sell it to you for the same price we sell to ourselves, but if you chose to sell it after you import it from us, you can sell it for whatever price you want to.

Stop trying to sell the propaganda here, we know that NAFTA is killing this country, giving contol over our lives to corporate greed and crippling our governments ability to govern! You might buy that story in the good ole u.s., but we know what it is doing here in Canada.

Further, you can use, the term nanny state, if you like, but in Canada we are still the government, so it isn't any nanny looking after us, it is our own money, our own elected officials that we are trying to get in line, they have bought into the corporate b.s. and have veered from the values we the people uphold, so you can use the term as if it were derogatory, but name calling will not change the fact that we have a good country, and we are working to make it great, for all people! We don't promote survival of the fittest up here, we are horrified when one of our police officers is killed, we are devastated when we see homeless people struggling, we don't want our kids hooked on crack, or prostituting themselves for a meal. We promote and encourage people to create business, to develope and learn, but our government has side tracked us by using our money to fund the corporate agenda, and that is why we are angry, that is why we are saying enough is enough!

You don't have to live here, you like the way your country is run, so revel in it. We have different priorities, different goals, we support and promote peace and we intend to continue to do so. If necessary those who have swayed from the public goals, or abused their power, or stolen our money, will be turfed out of office. That is democracy. Not perfect even in this country, yet, but it will come. And thanks any way we would prefer to not have the U.S. version, enforced upon us. Real democracy comes from the people, not from liberation armies, bombing us into submission.

---
If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

Well said and it should also be noted that we had trade surpluses BEFORE NAFTA as well.

Umm... I believe CAW jobs are related to the Canada-US Auto Pact, which actually predates NAFTA. This successful trade deal is not directly related to NAFTA, although NAFTA is often given credit for its success.

On another note, the Canadian Auto Workers and the NDP are on bad terms of late. Buzz Hargrove (President, CAW) is too busy criticizing the NDP to actually be behind the scenes pulling the strings.

Further to this Ed has just said in an interview on CTV that the actions of many in the House is "Barbaric". I gess many agree as the Conservitives are slipping in the polls and now all of a sudden they say that they will not reintroduce a non confidence motion if the budget passes thursday. H....mmm, actions speak louder than words?
(Rural)

<blockquote>They are the only ones talking about "deep integration" at all, why? Because it doesn't exist as a real plan anywhere. It is a strawman, being used to spook you into voting for them with nonsense of the big bad Americans coming on up and assimilating you into the evil collective. THERE IS NO SUCH PLAN... YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED.</blockquote> You've just displayed your total igorance of the issue. Deep integration IS in fact a bonafide plan, laid out in detail by several Canadian groups including the C.D. Howe Institute, the Fraser Institute, and the Canadian Council for Chief Executives (CCCE) to name a few. These are all powerful groups in Canada with a lot of influence. It has also been endorsed by other powerful groups including the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. "Deep integration" is also not a made-up term but a bonafide economic term and the term used by these groups when discussing the plan, not to mention influential world economic bodies such as the EU and the WTO. Google it and you'll see. In Canada it has been variously called, by the Canadian groups mentioned above as well as our elected ministers, "NAFTA-plus", the "Big Idea", the "Grand Bargain", and the "North American Security and Prosperity Initiative". Each group tends to have its own particular version of the plan, with some slight differences, but there are commonalities between them all, which include things like harmonizing Canadian and US regulations, creating common North American security and defence policies, using common currency and creating a customs union. Etc etc. If you want to look up these actual plans for yourself, here's more info on their history. Following the September 11 terror attacks, the CD Howe Institute began publishing "The Border Papers," described as "a project on Canada's choices regarding North American integration." Wendy Dobson, director of the Institute of International Business and professor at the University of Toronto's Joseph L. Rotman School of Management, authored the first Border Paper in April 2002. She argued that Canada should initiate deep North American integration. Dobson called her plan a "Big Idea." A couple of months after Dobson's "Big Idea," historian Jack Granatstein also produced a Border Paper. Granatstein is Distinguished Research Professor of History Emeritus at York University and chair of the Council for Canadian Security in the 21st Century, and also argued for integration--specifically, a new and deeper military alliance with the United States. And that's just to start you off. If you have read Canadian papers such as the Globe and Mail in the past few years you will find these groups and others repeatedly endorsing economic "deep integration" as a good plan for Canada, and explaining the tenets of the plan plus its alleged benefits. By and large the elite business community is very gung-ho about it all (as are their political friends the Conservatives) and the mainstream media tends to report their rosy view of deep integration--hence the need for the NDP and sites like this to try to raise some objections. There is little doubt the pro-integration groups are meanwhile bending the government's ear on the benefits of such a plan, and Paul Martin has in fact taken several steps along this road through new agreements such as the 40-point agreement on smart regulation brought in after the trilateral summit in Waco between Fox, Bush, and Martin. So before you criticize us all for being concerned about a non-issue, perhaps you should look around and read a little and check out the alleged non-issue we're all discussing--otherwise it's going to be very hard for anyone here to take you seriously. And PS everyone--I think I am going to create a static page for all of the pro-integration info, so we can more easily show the uneducated the plans we are fighting against. --- Now call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard, and we hit it fast, with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign.--Rimmer, Red Dwarf

>>I wonder first why you care so much about Canadians,when you clearly think we are idiots.<<,

No, you are judging me by your mindset. I do not think that all Canadians are idiots. Not at all.

>>Several of your posts have said as much, so why do you care which way we vote.<<<

What other word is there for someone who would write something like:

>>>The only way you can effectively deal with these power hungry maggots,is to kill them.Sorry.That is the only way.They will manipulate anyone to do what they want.You cannot reason with these people.They are always in the right and everbody else will always be wrong.Period.Violence is the only thing they understand.Period.<<<

There are statements that are idiotic, no matter what the nationality of the person making them.

What I object to most is the environment that this website helps to create in order to exploit it to demagogue the issues that it has conceived in order to put someone into office. A recently censored post basically spelled it all out.

The ripple effects of you two falsely claiming that the USA is out to subjugate Canada are that it lends a pseudo legitimacy to the brave little souls who will defend Canada’s “sovereignty” from this trumped up threat by leaning into a 79 year old woman’s car window and yelling “Go the fuck back to the states” because they see an American license plate. (The person who this happened to, my mother, is a dual citizen.) It lends legitimacy to the idiots who attack pee-wee hockey teams in order to “prevent Canada from becoming the 51st state”. It helps sell the idea that what is good for Canada is whatever is bad for the US and in order to be pro Canadian you have to be anti-American. It reinforces prejudice and bigotry while you are hypocritically paying lip service to “tolerance” and “diversity”.

>> But tell me how exactly NAFTA has been the positive for Canadian trade.<<<

I have a million times, but you people run from these facts like a Dracula from a crucifix. A billion US dollars worth of trade a day between our two countries, Canada enjoyed a 55 Billion US dollar trade surplus in 2003, a 65 billion US dollar trade surplus in 2004, it is forecast to be almost 80 billion in 2005. US trade is almost all of your non domestic service GDP. 80+% by some figures.
Before NAFTA there was still a lot of cross border trade but there were no “rules to the road” which meant that US corporations could leverage their deeper pockets in one on one negotiations to >really< have their way with you. Now you are whining that you want to go back to that status? Not smart, luckily for you there are a lot of Canadians who can see through the obfuscation that you promote in order to get elected office.

>> You seem desperate to prove to us that voting for a government that we want will somehow ruin our economy.<<<

You seem desperate to promote yourself as the savior of Canada’s sovereignty from the big bad evil Americans. You are also desperate to portray yourself as the “government we want”, why don’t you concentrate on putting together a real platform then selling phantasms of “deep integration” to the gullible. This mornings google session told me that was only good enough for 11% of the vote last time around.

>> First we have Ethyl corp.<<<

Well that cooperate tax seems to be working out great, If you can save millions of dollars just by switching mail boxes people are going to switch mail boxes.

>> second we have softwood lumber<<,

You just love to concentrate on the softwood lumber, meanwhile 99% of cross border trade goes off without a hitch. There are very real and unresolved questions of illegal subsidization. In fact, the only place I have seen a clear-cut forest was on Canadian national property.

>> then the border closed to our beef,<<,

Yeah, it was just arbitrary, nothing to do with a deadly brain wasting disease or anything. I am all but a vegetarian, have been since I happened upon a high capacity feed lot years ago.

>> while we still are forced to import U.S. beef, because the trade deal says we must, even though our beef has been proved safe for many months?<<,

The US government and the department of Agriculture is fighting the beef ban, on your side, in US courts. The “Ranchers-Cattlemen Action Legal Fund” is pursuing the same shortsighted protectionist policies that have been advocated elsewhere on these pages by Canadians. At least they are doing it for cash, not bigotry.

>> Oil and Gas? No, certainly not because of NAFTA, oil and gas is flowing for one reason, you want it and we have it<<,

Are you being paid for this?
(Meanwhile your papers scream bloody murder when we want to drill in Alaska… Our Sovereignty !!!)

>> Also we must sell it to you for the same price we sell to ourselves,<<<

Yes, fair market value.

>> if you chose to sell it after you import it from us, you can sell it for whatever price you want to.<<

Who is going to pay more then fair market value when they can buy it elsewhere for less? It is the marketplace regulating prices, not some fat head in the government.

>> Stop trying to sell the propaganda here, we know that NAFTA is killing this country<<<

I am just telling the truth, sorry if it is spoiling your hate party. Just by chanting something over and over again, like “deep integration” of “NAFTA is killing this country” doesn’t make it based in reality. Persuade me that it is the case…
The only propaganda here is the idea that the USA is out to subjugate Canada and that you are its only savior. It is creating an enemy and promoting yourself as the solution. I have seen your biography and read your comments. Even if the nonsense you spout was true, and it isn’t, are you the one most qualified to lead Canada to deliverance from the evil bastards?

>> giving contol over our lives to corporate greed and crippling our governments ability to govern!<<

All corporations are “bad” huh, No wonder you make it so difficult to stay up there. You are going to have people pushing plows behind oxen with your grand ideas. Your government’s ability to govern has been crippled by its sleazy, back room way of doing things. They don’t have any accountability and they know it. One of the reasons they don't is that you are so obsessed with the USA. Paul martin could be caught in a hotel room with a bunch of dead hookers and he could point south and say, “look at those bastards” and the vive le lemmings would all turn their heads in mass and shake their fists at the border.

>> Further, you can use, the term nanny state, if you like, but in Canada we are still the government, so it isn't any nanny looking after us, it is our own money, our own elected officials that we are trying to get in line, they have bought into the corporate b.s. and have veered from the values we the people uphold, so you can use the term as if it were derogatory, but name calling will not change the fact that we have a good country, and we are working to make it great, for all people!<<,

“We are still the government “Indeed, you wish to be one of them. Tell me, isn’t there a shade of paternalistic, sanctimonious, “I know what’s best for all of you here so just sit back and let me make the decisions for you” in your own rhetoric, as well as that coming out of your governments. Government is not your mommy.

>> We don't promote survival of the fittest up here, we are horrified when one of our police officers is killed, we are devastated when we see homeless people struggling, we don't want our kids hooked on crack, or prostituting themselves for a meal.<<<

Oh yeah, and we are cheering all those things, Hurray for dead cops and child prostitutes! Its this kind of disingenuous demagoguery that should have people running like hell from you.

>>We promote and encourage people to create business,<<

You make it much harder to do business, much, much harder. I know this for a fact, I have done business in both places. I was going to help start a small business in the Maritimes, making fixtures for yachts and powerboats. I ran the numbers over and over again but there was no way we could have made it work and at least break even. You see, even though it would only have employed about 5 people we would have needed to incorporate for liability purposes, there by being subjected to the whole evil “corporate agenda” diatribe that can get very expensive. It is evidentially better for Canada to have them unemployed.

>>You don't have to live here, you like the way your country is run, so revel in it.<<,

There are very real problems with the way my government is run, big ones. None of which will get solved or even acknowledged in the most fundamental way by scapegoating another country for Americas failings. Maturely reasoning out the problems and acknowledging fault and correcting them can only come in an atmosphere of honesty and introspection. This site actively works against such an atmosphere in Canada.

>> We have different priorities, different goals<<

God speed! You go girl! The thing of it is, some here think that whatever is bad for the USA should be your priority, even if it is bad for Canada as well. Some here have sold that agenda in a pathetic attempt to get themselves elected to office.

>> we support and promote peace and we intend to continue to do so.<<,

You GO! Because as you have outlined, Americans only love war, right???? Sitting on the sidelines and complaining is a great way to “promote peace.” The Rwandans and the Sudanese killed off in their respective genocides are very peaceful.

>> If necessary those who have swayed from the public goals, or abused their power, or stolen our money, will be turfed out of office.<<<

Unless they can demagogue their way back in by creating a common enemy to rally around…

>> And thanks any way we would prefer to not have the U.S. version, enforced upon us.<<,

And when did we do that? It’s the big lie. You sell it every day.

>> Real democracy comes from the people, not from liberation armies, bombing us into submission.<<,

So the USA wants to bomb you into submission?
Stop lying. There are idiots out there who actually believe your bullshit. True, not enough to get you and your benefactor elected, but enough to beat up children at hockey games and yell at old women at traffic intersections.

>>>Deep integration IS in fact a bonafide plan, laid out in detail by several Canadian groups including the C.D. Howe institute...<<< 
 
Results 1 - 3 of 3 from <a href="http://www.cdhowe.org">www.cdhowe.org</a> for "deep integration". (0.19 seconds) 
 
Gee, the CD Howe institute published 2 papers, containing ideas for “tax harmonization” in 1996 and 2003, The latter an update. 
 
Here’s the most recent: <a href="http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/backgrounder_76.pdf">http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/backgrounder_76.pdf</a> 
 
So is any call for cooperation an affront to your sovereignty? 
 
The C.D. Howe Institute, 
67 Yonge Street, Suite 300, Toronto, Ontario • M5E 1J8 
 
This C.D. Howe institute, It’s a Canadian think tank, not a part of the US government trying to subjugate you. A private citizen in Canada writes a paper calling for closer trade harmonization and all of a sudden the Canadian bigots come out to claim the USA is out to get you. 
 
Lets see, The Fraser Institute. OOOh they are spooky too. Another Canadian think tank, probably run by the CIA s division of tint Canadian think tanks that no one ever listens to. 
 
Results 1 - 2 of 2 from <a href="http://www.fraserinstitute.ca">www.fraserinstitute.ca</a> for "deep integration". (0.15 seconds) 
 
Competitive Strategies for the Protection of Intellectual Property 
Publication Date: January 2000 
 
“Dr. Sylvia Ostry, University of Toronto, brings her wealth of professional experience and academic research in setting the stage for the new round of intellectual property discussions likely to emerge in the “millennium round” of trade talks launched at the Seattle Ministerial Summit on November 30, 1999. She highlights the upcoming challenges to the “deep integration” of trading economies implicit in a global standard of intellectual property protection.” 
 
Here is the text on PDF: 
<a href="http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/Introduction-1CSPIPContentsAuthors&Intro.pdf">http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/Introduction-1CSPIPContentsAuthors&Intro.pdf</a> 
 
Well lookie, some Canadian University professor wrote something in 1999 about >global< standards for intellectual property protection. Gee, that really looks like a threat to your sovereignty, especially from the big bad USA. 
 
And the Canadian Council for Chief Executives, worst yet: 
 
“Your search - site:<a href="http://www.ceocouncil.ca">www.ceocouncil.ca</a> “deep integration” - did not match any documents.” 
 
Looks like they are keeping their nefarious Canadian plot to deeply integrate you a secret. 
 
>>You've just displayed your total igorance of the issue.<<< 
 
LOL 
 
>>"Deep integration" is also not a made-up term but a bonafide economic term and the term used by these groups when discussing the plan, not to mention influential world economic bodies such as the EU and the WTO. Google it and you'll see.<<, 
 
I did, most roads lead back here, to Vive le lets use scare tactics. That and items pertaining to the EU, the very same group that some here have advocated joining to take a dig at the USA... 
Ill write more later and parse the rest of your comment, but from what I have seen you are just railing against the very “thought of thinking about” any cooperation with the USA without looking at the ideas or judging them on their merits. You know, prejudice, which doesn’t square with the supposed liberal ideas that you have paid lip service to.