Gurmant Grewal not seeking re-election?
ziggy @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:08 pm
lily lily:
*sigh*
Ethics aren't contingent on someone else's behaviour. So... when we're discussing Grewal, it really isn't relative to point out that someone else is worse.
In law... a person isn't found "innocent" of the crimes... they're found "not guilty".
Huge difference.
Ethics aren't contingent on someone else's behaviour. So... when we're discussing Grewal, it really isn't relative to point out that someone else is worse.
In law... a person isn't found "innocent" of the crimes... they're found "not guilty".
Huge difference.
Did he get charged?
Thematic-Device @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:12 pm
Ruserious Ruserious:
Facts don't lie you tool.
$1:
John Dooher, a forensic audio engineer hired by CBC News, said Thursday there is a "crude" edit and something "amiss" about a section of tapes made by the B.C. member of Parliament.
The tape has Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh talking about Grewal's future.
Grewal secretly recorded hours of conversations with Dosanjh and Tim Murphy, the prime minister's chief of staff, about switching parties.
"Right here, we hear what sounds like an edit. We have a change in the frequency spectrum so something has changed there," said Dooher, demonstrating the difference while at a sound board.
The tape has Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh talking about Grewal's future.
Grewal secretly recorded hours of conversations with Dosanjh and Tim Murphy, the prime minister's chief of staff, about switching parties.
"Right here, we hear what sounds like an edit. We have a change in the frequency spectrum so something has changed there," said Dooher, demonstrating the difference while at a sound board.
$1:
His conclusions are supported by Stevan Pausak, one of Canada's leading forensic-sound analysts. Pausak was asked by Canadian Press to carry out a similar examination. He said one of the tapes has an abnormal break, indicting a section may have been cut out.
Dooher said while more sophisticated testing could offer more certainty, he believes his original conclusion.
"This sounds to me, not only that this is an edit, but an edit done with something very crude," he said.
Dooher said while more sophisticated testing could offer more certainty, he believes his original conclusion.
"This sounds to me, not only that this is an edit, but an edit done with something very crude," he said.
$1:
The Conservative Party said late Thursday that small gaps occurred when the master tapes were transferred to CD.
But Pausak said he found an entirely separate abnormality that couldn't be explained by transferring.
Pausak, who once worked for the Ontario government and now testifies in trials, said there is a discontinuity in the audio file.
"I'm talking about alteration. I am trying to avoid the word tampering,'' he said.
"When you are using the word 'tampering', that means intent, right? Most of the time there is no way to show intent through the examination of the recording. You just see that it's altered.''
Grewal denied tampering with the evidence.
But Pausak said he found an entirely separate abnormality that couldn't be explained by transferring.
Pausak, who once worked for the Ontario government and now testifies in trials, said there is a discontinuity in the audio file.
"I'm talking about alteration. I am trying to avoid the word tampering,'' he said.
"When you are using the word 'tampering', that means intent, right? Most of the time there is no way to show intent through the examination of the recording. You just see that it's altered.''
Grewal denied tampering with the evidence.
Actually all the articles simply mention a gap in the recording, or rather not even that, but that at one point the pitch changed. Such a thing would be consistant with the recorder being bumped into a new location, the speakers could have moved, something being knocked infront of the recorder, or removed from in front of it, it could be a deletion as was suggested, but deleting a single section as a general rule doesn't void the entire document, I find it highly unlikely that the section would have been a preface of "wouldn't we be jerks if..."
and I find it unlikely that the conservative party couldn't be bothered to say... invest in a free download of the trial version of a professional program.
And having transfered sound files from one medium to the next e.g. record to CD, record to MP3, Tape to CD etc. it is quite possible to screw up part of it, especially if you're doing it with substandard equipment such as an old 1/8s dubbing cable from the Cassette player into the microphone jack of a computer.
RUEZ @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:12 pm
lily lily:
In law... a person isn't found "innocent" of the crimes... they're found "not guilty".
Huge difference.
Lily how can someone be found not guilty that hasn't been charged with a crime. He is innocent until it has been proven that he is not.
Huge difference.
Thematic-Device @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:25 pm
lily lily:
The tapes were found to have gaps - the experts didn't indicate they may have come from the speakers moving, being bumped, etc.
Somnething was edited out. The question is what... and why.
Somnething was edited out. The question is what... and why.
The forensic scientists don't really know where it came from, they think it may indicate something being edited out which is certainly the juiciest explanation. But the fact remains that they don't know.
Magnetic Tapes aren't exactly great replicators of sound and are more then prone to distort things and screw things up, I doubt that the tapes were originally made with all the high tech equipment available, and there is no wonderful way of transferring tapes to a cd (I'll stand by my guess that it was a 1/8s cord run into a computer) in which case there is every reason to believe that the discrepancy was innocous. The headphone jack on my monitor (and this is why I don't use it) changes pitch and goes from working to not working when you so much as rotate the plug.
ziggy @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:25 pm
lily lily:
My point is...
Just because he wasn't charged doesn't mean he was innocent. Not "not guilty"... innocent.
The tapes were found to have gaps - the experts didn't indicate they may have come from the speakers moving, being bumped, etc.
Somnething was edited out. The question is what... and why.
Just because he wasn't charged doesn't mean he was innocent. Not "not guilty"... innocent.
The tapes were found to have gaps - the experts didn't indicate they may have come from the speakers moving, being bumped, etc.
Somnething was edited out. The question is what... and why.
What experts? The "experts" I listened to said everything was Kosher.
Guest @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:41 pm
The experts in Ruserious' links had a different take. 
MaelstromRider @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:05 pm
I think there is enough evidence (circumstantial or actual) to call Grewal's integrity into question.
Run.
Don't run.
Who cares, let the voters decide.
PluggyRug @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:13 pm
And Belinda Stronach was not offered anything.
And the Earth is flat, and the Liberals are squeaky clean, and turkey's grow on tree's.
ridenrain @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:19 pm
Kee-rist folks.
He's an MP. He's not Frick'n James Bond. He probably made the recordings with an answering machine. What do you bet that the quality is shakey. Something tells me that he might not have got the same results if he brought along a CBC news crew.
again:
If the Liberals didn't want to deal, it doesn't take 4 hours, the Prime Minister's chief of Tim Murphy and top Martin aide and Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh to just say no.
Here's all 10 pages: