An apology and concession to Derby X

I have to apologize to Derby X for my unethical behavior in our debate. I falsely claimed that the quotes I used were from the book, rather than a review of the book. This was extremely unethical, hypocritical and shameful behavior. For this reason, I have to concede that he won the debate, based on his ethical use of resources to back up his arguements and is therefore the better man/debator. I accept the chastisement and ridicule, from Derby X, that has been directed at me for my serious breach of proper behavior. He has shown a level of maturity, unlike the pompous Goddess of the the Forum, that I have failed to meet.
However, I still do not accept his stance in regards to National Socialism, Hitler and Christianity. On that matter I will have to disagree because I feel evidence proves otherwise and I hope another, more ethical than myself, will pick up where I failed.

In addition to Dayseed, I also received a message from Mustang1 on the aforementioned "busting" of ShepherdsDog. I believe he came to the information independantly and deserves credit. It is not surprising given his knowledge of WW2 and related events of that era. Kudos to you both. PDT_Armataz_01_34

Thanks Derby,

And Shepardsdog, I read your last crybaby response before this one. So I'll drop it too.

National Socialism was born in Germany, a land that had been Christian for well over 1 000 years. The nazis utilized Christianity as a means to an end. They took the worst aspects of European Christianity, anti semitism, and worked on it. They incorporated elements of pseudo science, Christianity, paganism and new age mysticism to create a mythos that, while resembling Christianity, was about as far as one could get from the message of Jesus. Voodoo and Santaria grew from an amalgamation of Christian and pagan beliefs and there are rituals and aspects of it, that Christians would recognize, yet I would hardly call them Christian.

The nazis tried to Aryanize Christianity, to the point that they denied Christ was a Jew. They took elements of Christ and combined them with the old nordic gods to create a transitional religion. They referred to this as Positive Christianity. If they had of been successful, they would have twisted it into something almost unrecognizable to Christians everywhere else. Today we have the Church of Jesus Christ of Aryan Nations, which most Christians would recognize the name. However, their beliefs and practices run completely contrary to what most Christians believe. It is not recognizable as a Christian church. This sis what the Nazis tried to create, and had it been successful further changes would have occured, with more mysticism and paganism being incorporated over time.

You are ignoring all the different sects in modern Xtianity. Mormons, J-W, church of god, church of christ, the list goes on and on.

All these sects have varying modifications of Xtianity through the ages. I might add they vary from the popes catholic church which regards itself as perfect Xtianity and the yard-stick to which it should be measured. People have long felt (1000s years long) that the pope and his church have diverged from "true" Xtianity so why should they not diverge from it. The Nazis were no different.

The fact remains that they considered themselves Xtian, and hitler was definately Xtian in scope.

In addition, you have yet to comment that a great deal of this stems from the very real attempt by Xtian fundies to link Hitler and the Nazis directly to Atheism as many today still think. I would appreciate your comment on that tactic.

I think that is about the best description of Christianity I have ever heard. My biggist hope is that it is transitioning to something less bloodthirsty. If you examine this hodge podge of beliefs closely enough you can do nothing but giggle at it and thumb your nose.

These people deny evolution, so their credibility is nil as far as I am concerned. I don't believe, nor have I ever stated that Hitler was not a spiritual man. The National Socialists were all about religion, spirituality and mysticism. The myth of the Blood, the Volk and Ayan supermen are cornerstones of their Party. Most were adherents of Neitzche, who claimed that (our concept of) God was dead. They sought to create a new god in their image. Coupled with this, was the fact that they had sat through one too many of Wagner's operas (I managed Ring Cycle once).

Hitler was Xtian! You must accept this. I think those who consider themselves spiritual and not religious would not like your interpretation. Religion is all about control. The Church is all about controlling peoples lives. You cannot possibly sit there with a straight face and deny this. Many people who leave church & religion are leaving that very control in order to pursue spirituality. Hitler adhered to the principles and beliefs of the Vienese Xtian church that he was raised in. You will find that the majority of the German people were Xtian. You are dancing and weaving but you cannot change the tune. They sought to create society in the image of what they though god wanted! That is exactly what a great many religious groups are continually trying to do. Look at US Xtian fundies. If they had there way then every facet of US society would reflect their own personal biblical interpretation. That is what Hitler tried to do. He still believed in god. He still believed in jesus being the son of god. He still believed in the bible and in core biblical doctrine. He was absolutely a Xtian.

BTW, again no comment on Xtian fundie attempt to link Atheism to Hitler & the Nazis. Why?

My first line in the post clearly states my views on their views and attempt to link them. Read it again, placing your index finger on the words as you read them. Stalin was raised a Christian and was even in a seminary, studying for the priesthood. Yet he became an atheist and a mass muderer. Can you attribute that to his Christian upbringing or his atheism? What made him a killer?

Fair enough. It looked as though you were refering to something else. Apologies.

With regards to Stalin, he did what he did in the name of Marxism and class struggle and of course to obtain total control. He did not do it in the name of Atheism. For that matter Atheism does not have "dogma". It is simply the denial of the existence of god(s). Even if he had done what he did in the name of Atheism so what? It does not invalidate it or disprove its beliefs.

You will note that I have not used the Hitler/Nazii-Xtian connection as an argument against Xtianity or tried to discredit Xtianity, only that Hitler was a Xtian. You have taken the defensive tract that many Xtian apologetics have taken in that any connection between Xtianity & Hitler/nazis works to discredit ot disprove the religion. They think like that because they themselves use that tactic to discredit every other faith. They point to any random bad act committed by someone of a dofferent belief as representitive of the belief in whole. That is a fundemental reason why they want to destroy, cover-up or minimize any possible connection.

You are doing just that. You are trying in vain to show that they were not Xtians and failing that, that they were not really Xtians anyway because they didn't follow the teachings of christ as you see them.

I might also add that the total control that Stalin witnessed in the Church & seminary could easily have given rise to his ambition for total control. You have also linked his Atheism to his mass murders, nice try. On the other hand it is no secret that animosity that has existed between Xtians and jews. Hitler did indeed learn that at the hands of Xtian doctrine (as any historian can easily verify) and that it very much did indeed play the lead role in his views on jewish people and subsequently their treatment at his commands. It is well established criticism of the catholic church and in particualr the pope in that he did not condemn the treatment of the jews, for which later popes apologized. I think you will find a great deal of jewish literature that points to this very harsh truth. The most militant of said opinions is that the pope was giving silent consent to those actions. That is a matter for debate though.

In the end we are still left with the reality that Hitler was indeed Xtian and that the nazis did indeed establish certain Xtian tenents as law. The connection is there and it is very strong.

Does this mean that Xtianity was the cause of WW2. No, and I (or you for that matter) has never said that. Did Xtianity give rise to the nazi movement? No, but it did give rise to their attitudes towards the jews.

Lily is right. Even though I pretty much hate every religions in this world, you cannot tell that someone is a Christian just because he or she pretends so.